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  #76  
Unread 1st of October, 2003, 11:19
PullOfTheSpirit
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Man. I was just reading a few rules threads over at ENWorld, and it really seems as if 3.5 is getting too miniatures intensive. According to the latest errata, you can no longer Overrun as part of a Charge. This, coupled with the fact that you can only Charge in a straight line, means that if any ally is in your path, you cannot Charge a target along that same line.

Previously, you could use the Overrun action in conjuction with your ally using the automatic avoid action to allow the Charge. Now, that is gone, which means you need to be fully aware of every allies position on the battlemap. Not only does this change create that problem, but it is also creating other problems throughout the system. Like, how does the Trample feat work now?

Of course, this change, and a few others, were recieved negatively for the above reasons. Cadrius, I know we are playing under 3.5, but I trust you will be house ruling insanity like the above?

PS

By the way, I do not mean to be such a high maintenance player. I know I am asking about a great deal of information from a rules standpoint, and I will take it down a notch if it is a problem. My apologies if this is irritating to you.
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  #77  
Unread 1st of October, 2003, 11:51
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One never had to use the Overrun action to get by an ally. You can always move through an occupied square if the person lets you. Its ussually assumed that an ally will let you through your square, but an opponent may choose not to.

As for them prohibiting an Overrun as part of a charge, I think that's kind of foolish. The whole point of the Overrun action originally was to enable characters to charge through a line of defenders to reach some one in the back. In fact, in 3.0 you had to be charging to make an overrun attempt.

What say you Cadrius? What'll it be for us?
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  #78  
Unread 1st of October, 2003, 12:20
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Yes, Black Plauge, and that is part of the Overrun action. Automatically letting someone pass through your square is covered by the Overrun action. With the new ruling, you are no longer allowed to do so.
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  #79  
Unread 1st of October, 2003, 12:21
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Gang:

Sorry I have not been a part of the vast and rich conversations that have been sprawling out over this thread before now. Wow. Y'all talk too much!

Anyhow, with regard to 3.0, 3.5, or even the new 'errata' (why would you errata something your just released not even 2 months' previous?) -- the beauty of this game is that the DM is always the final arbiter of what is 'rule' and what is 'guideline'. So if Cadrius wants to play that the Overrun feat can no longer be used in conjunction with a Charge, that's his perogative. If he feels, like some of us do, that WotC can shove their miniature-loving rules and errata, then more power to him.

'Nuff said on that. I'm finishing up my character stats tonight, so have a look-see after about 10pm CST.

And about my low charisma score … how personable would you be if your family and everything you held dear were slain before your eyes? Then the elven scout who became your mentor (one of Aradil’s Eyes, no less) gave his life so that you could escape and live. At 20 years of age, Feyd is pretty much convinced that his life is doomed, and that everyone he comes in contact with will eventually die to the Shadow. His grim outlook on things precipitated my choice in this stat. That has little bearing on his physical attractiveness (who remembers the 1st edition Comeliness stat??? Original ‘Unearthed Arcana’??), but is a reflection of his general demeanor.

That also does not mean his outlook cannot improve with time (and specifically, levels 4, 8, and 12 … ). But for now, you’ll meet (I hope) a very forlorn young man with an itch to kill anything resembling an orc.
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  #80  
Unread 1st of October, 2003, 12:28
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Originally posted by Dirigible
Pidgen = 1/2 skp
Fluent = 1 skp
Literate = 2 skp
This is the system I would prefer using.

Edit: Doh, doh, doh. I read "skp" and somehow it was turned into "ranks" in my head. My bad, I don't want half-skill points floating around so if you decide to pick up pidgin you'll need to have a second language in mind, or be willing to throw away half a point.

Last edited by Cadrius; 1st of October, 2003 at 15:15.
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  #81  
Unread 1st of October, 2003, 12:36
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Originally posted by PullOfTheSpirit
By the way, Cadrius, I was wondering how you handle alignment. Given the nature of the setting, it will obviously play an important factor, particularly when encountering Legates or other such servants of Izrador.
Unlike D&D I'm giving alignments more of a relative feel to them. Thus Detect Evil is really more like Detect Shadow, whereby it divines the presence of a devotion to Izrador or other such things. So I suppose a truly evil person could maim, murder, and mangle people left and right but if he doesn't give a crap about Izzy, then he won't pick up on your radar.

The reverse, Detect Light (for lack of a better term), might show the subject's willingness to stand against the darkness. So it matters less what your alignment is, but more what you believe in. Of course it's quite difficult to be evil or good without taking a stand for or against Izrador, but that's the way the world works.

How exactly do you define the varying alignments along the axis, and should I be aware of any actions that might shift my alignment to Evil? As an example, the Midnight campaign book mentions Dwarves practicing torture, and gladiatoral combats against prisoners of war. Would you consider that Evil?
Torture, regardless of the circumstances, really would be considered a malignant inflicting of pain upon a helpless foe. Even in that culture it's neutral at best and a shady one at that. It certainly isn't good, not by any means. Gladatiator Arenas likewise are not good, even with the best medical care and the lowest fatalities. Forcing someone into servitude isn't a good act.

One important thing for everyone to remember is that your character's actions determine his or her alignment, not vice versa. I've found there are even some veteran players out there who can't quite grasp this.
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  #82  
Unread 1st of October, 2003, 12:42
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Originally posted by Black Plauge
What say you Cadrius? What'll it be for us?
You know me, while I might enjoy discussing and reading the rules, I hate being bound by them. This seems like one of those cases where common sense outweighs whatever it is they were trying to attempt.

Of course you can charge through an area occupied by an ally. Extenuating circumstances aside your buddy will move if he sees you barreling toward him. I'll need to take a closer look at these rules but as it stands I think I'd agree to keep it more like 3.0.

Swash, it's totally acceptable that he has an eight for a charisma. I wasn't trying to harp on you guys or point to it and yell "Dump stat!" I just wanted to cover my bases for when NPCs are less than pleasant with the wildlander or dwarf, that's all.
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  #83  
Unread 1st of October, 2003, 12:42
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Question:

Tindertwigs ... p.128 PHB. Available?
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  #84  
Unread 1st of October, 2003, 12:44
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I know YOU weren't dumping on my CHA, Cad .. I just wanted everyone to understand the method behind my madness.
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  #85  
Unread 1st of October, 2003, 12:58
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Originally posted by Swashbuckler
Tindertwigs ... p.128 PHB. Available?
Yes, but the common man cannot afford such a trivial item. All it does is make lighting a fire easier and they have better things to barter for. As a result it tends to be a bit expensive as well as rare. In the southern cities its held as a novelty. I'd say it'd cost about 3GP to get your hands on them and only in reasonably populated areas.


Olive or Fish oil [no idea about cost]

Opaque container to steep them in (PHB clay jugs should suffice)

Containers to carry completed infused oils (PHB ceramic flasks, most likely)

Honey and/or sugar (not sure about cost of these)

Scale (merchant scale per phb)

Measuring cups (not sure on cost or weight)

Cinammon sticks (cinammon from PHB)

Bee's Wax (answered)

Various alcohols (wine?)

Heat source. I'm thinking some sort of oil lamp, like they would use to heat sealing wax. (no idea on cost or weight).
1. Once again it's dependent upon the area. While used in cooking, Olive Oil isn't made everywhere and thus isn't always readily available. However one might expect to be able to trade a day or two rations for a jar.

2. Opaque containers will work.

3. Yup, flasks.

4. Again, they're like baked goods and dependent upon how much they're wanted they could range from 5-15 SP.

5. Scale, yes.

6. Measuring Cups. I'd say 1GP and 2lb.

7. Cinnamon, yep.

8. Alcohols, will likely be similar to wine or ale prices.

9. Heat source. Perhaps we'll make it simple and charge you for a normal lamp.

There, I think I replied to all the issues as hand. Sheesh guys, you're keeping me awfully busy.
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  #86  
Unread 1st of October, 2003, 13:03
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Originally posted by Cadrius
One important thing for everyone to remember is that your character's actions determine his or her alignment, not vice versa. I've found there are even some veteran players out there who can't quite grasp this.
And I'm a veteran DM and Player who not only grasps the idea, but feels directly opposite. I've had this discussion with so many people over the last 10 years it makes my head spin just thinking about it.

The long and the short of my viewpoint is this: you are playing a character in a game. Much like being handed a script for a part in a play, you as the Player are acting out the role of some person/creature that has some pre-defined characteristics. Regardless of how you personally would handle any given situation which your PC may find itself in, the game just isn't 'real life', no matter how 'life-like' someone wants it to be.

Therefore, when a PC with a L/N/C Good alignment comes upon the quintessential damsel in distress, his alignment dictates that he try to rescue her from whatever danger she is facing. Contrasted, a Lawful Evil PC might help the damsel, but only if he got something out of it. A Chaotic Evil or Neutral Evil PC might actually jump in and help out with the 'distressing'.

This is just a minor example - please don't armchair-quarterback it to death. Alignment, like the combat system, is a mechanic of the game. As a DM, you choose which mechanics you will and will not include. More than anything, alignments are a guide to how your character will react to life in general, not an edict of "Thou shalt ..."

If you choose to not include the given alignment system, that's fine - and I applaud your homebrew 'ethics' alternative! But please don't knock those of us who feel differently. I've got over 22 years of experience with D&D and AD&D, and I've got a long history of running epic campaigns with successful uses of the given alignment system.

I've also found that when players stick to the alignment that they chose for their PC, it makes them roleplay that much better, because it then becomes the Player portraying a fantasy character, not the Player jumping into a false world and acting out themselves in the same circumstances.
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  #87  
Unread 1st of October, 2003, 13:13
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I guess it's simply a difference in opinion. I've always viewed alignments as guidelines, nothing more, finding them to be too broad for my own comfort. Indeed, it seems as if we've had opposite experiences. My best results have come from games where alignment takes a back seat to a more personalized set of ethics and behavior. My headaches have come from games where players let their alignment dictate their actions.

When questioned why a goblin PC severed a dead person's leg, extracted the femur, and used it as a makeshift club, he responded, "Because I'm evil." For some that might work, for me it doesn't. I like alignment to be like any other personal detail like height or eye color. It adds flavor and fleshes them out, but it shouldn't be something to agonize over.
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  #88  
Unread 1st of October, 2003, 13:33
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I understand where you're coming from - I do. You'll have to trust me on that. We have different viewpoints, is all. Just don't think that I'm ignorant or that I don't know what I'm talking about, and we'll get along just fine!

Like I said, I like your home-rule of actions. I'll have no problem adapting to that style.
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  #89  
Unread 1st of October, 2003, 13:41
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But perhaps I misspoke. I did not mean to imply that those that disagreed were ignorant, they're just wrong. I can, however, appreciate the other side as I used to do the same thing. I guess I just had a change of heart. Perhaps my real problem is with players who use alignment as a shield to hide behind. "Of course my rogue helps an old woman across the street and then burns her house down. He's chaotic neutral!"
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  #90  
Unread 1st of October, 2003, 13:55
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Is Trader's Tongue considered a pidgin language per p.106 of MN?

If so, does that mean it's considered 1/2 skill?
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  #91  
Unread 1st of October, 2003, 14:21
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Not to pick apart your character, but fluency in High Elven costs two ranks because of its complexity, and Erenlanders do not have Traders Tongue as an automatic language.
I am aware that the Erenlander bonus language includes any language except the secret or restricted languages, but I am not sure what Pull is refering to when he says Erenlanders do not have Traders Tongue as an automatic language. According to MN pg. 106 entry under Trader's Tongue:

Because most races recognize many of their own words and linguistic elements in Trader's Tongue, they find it unusually easy to learn.
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  #92  
Unread 1st of October, 2003, 14:24
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Okay, being that I've played in/am playing in several Midnight games (both PnP and PbP), the language system used in almost all of them is:

- Automatic Language(s) based on race
- Bonus Lang(s) for high INT score (must be chosen from your racial list): 1 lang per pt of ability bonus (a 16 INT gives 3 extra langs)
- 1 skill pt (unless otherwise stated on pgs 106-107, Midnight CS) to learn other languages over and above racial and INT-bonus choices.
- Read/Write of anything is 1 skill pt extra, except Old Dwarven which is 2 pts (p.108 Midnight CS)

This is the least confusing way to do it, but again, it's only one option. Don't take my version of it as gospel truth ... it's Cadrius's call.

Also, for note, Erenlanders choose ANY language for bonus languages, other than 'secret' ones such as the Black Tongue or Druidic. This does not cost skill points, if they have an ability bonus from a high INT score.
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Last edited by Swashbuckler; 1st of October, 2003 at 14:33.
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  #93  
Unread 1st of October, 2003, 14:36
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PS - all done with my character sheet. It's posted. Sorry about the delay.

PPS - So Maeko is female ... I know I'm male, what about the rest of ye? Do we have gents playing female PC's?
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  #94  
Unread 1st of October, 2003, 14:55
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Not to harp on the language thing ... but MN refers to Black Tongue as a pidgen language of sorts. Can we treat it as such (skp wise)?
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  #95  
Unread 1st of October, 2003, 15:01
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I'm as manly as a Man United supporter crossing the River Manly in winter, stark naked, carrying a basket of snakes in my teeth.



And the fact I wear women's underwear in no way challanges that.
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  #96  
Unread 1st of October, 2003, 15:14
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Originally posted by Dirigible
crossing the River Manly in winter, stark naked,
Funny, I bet you wouldn't look very manly then.


Is Trader's Tongue considered a pidgin language per p.106 of MN?

...but MN refers to Black Tongue as a pidgen language of sorts. Can we treat it as such (skp wise)?
While you could learn the pidgin versions of these languages, they are both their own and cost a skill point each to learn fluently (as listed).

- Automatic Language(s) based on race
- Bonus Lang(s) for high INT score (must be chosen from your racial list): 1 lang per pt of ability bonus (a 16 INT gives 3 extra langs)
- 1 skill pt (unless otherwise stated on pgs 106-107, Midnight CS) to learn other languages over and above racial and INT-bonus choices.
- Read/Write of anything is 1 skill pt extra, except Old Dwarven which is 2 pts (p.108 Midnight CS)
This seems more or less what I had in mind, but perhaps I was misleading somewhere. The only addition I would make here is the option of learning pidgin in two languages for the price of one skill point. You sacrifice specialization for flexibility and that's fine by me.
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  #97  
Unread 1st of October, 2003, 15:20
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Automatic Languages are detailed in every races Languages section. They are the languages your character knows without using bonus selections from Intelligence or skillpoints. The only Automatic Language Erenlanders have is Erenlander.
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  #98  
Unread 1st of October, 2003, 15:29
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So, are we starting tomorrow? Most of the characters are fully worked up now. Only a few minor adjustments and we should be ready to roll.
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  #99  
Unread 1st of October, 2003, 15:31
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The goal is to start tomorrow. All I need to do is get Maeko's finalized background and double-check everyone's sheet to make sure there aren't any issues before we can begin.
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Unread 1st of October, 2003, 22:48
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Yeesh. It feels like I've got 12 days worth of posts to catch up on instead of 12 hours .

Oh, and for those who are curious, I'm a man - and a manly man at that (chainsaws and beer, oh yeah!). Aleina is all the things I'm not .
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