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  #76  
Unread 29th of December, 2011, 04:47
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here would be the exact build of feats and relevant info:

Cleric of Vulcan (fire/earth)--with a 16ish CHA that gives 6 undead turns, 6 fire turns, 6 earth turns

1st:tenacious/persistant (think Tash might be right on the name) spell-- metamagic
Human bonus: Divine metamagic (above feat)
3rd:Extend spell --metamagic

Effects:
2- 1st level buffs on a 2 day rotation as a 2nd level spell (sack 6 turns per day) which each last 48 hrs...Use divine favor and shield of faith (+2 luck to hit and damage; +2 deflection to AC)
1-2nd level buff for 24 hrs (sack 6 turns)...use Bulls strength (+4 str)
1-1st level buff for 24 hrs (sack 6 turns)...use Magic weapon (+1 bonus to one weapon)


later levels take Goad (if DM allows it from spalsh books) if not take Divine metamagic (extend spell) then pour ALL the rest of the feats into Extra turning (gives +4 turns/day to each pool..gain 12 turns pur day on this build)...in normal 3.5 play take Contemplative and have a obad-hi as your patron...take the other 2 elemental domains and have a whole lot of cycling 48 hr buffs for yourself and others.

Later levels keep your party buffed with Shield other and any time they get hit heal yourself or just have a constant regeneration spell active and keep the baddies off your team.


--------------------------------------------------------
that being said if this is not a harmonious build I will think up another and submit that.

Last edited by Captain Gavis; 29th of December, 2011 at 04:50.
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  #77  
Unread 29th of December, 2011, 05:13
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Essentially you'd be perma-buffed with +4 to Str, +3 to hit and damage (on one weapon), and +2 to AC, and in turn you'd give up all of your turns each day?

Assuming cleric BAB and, what, a 14 Str?, that's 3 (BAB) + 2 (base Str) + 2 (bull's strength) + 2 (divine favor) +1 (magic weapon) for +10 to attack and damage, assuming a one-handed weapon in one hand, 1d8 + 7, [which is made up of: 4 (Str) + 2 (divine favor) + 1 (magic weapon].

That attack bonus is what bothers me, and I'm not sure if it should or not. A dedicated frontline two-handed weapon fighter would have 4 BAB + 4 STR + 1 Weapon Focus + 1 (magic weapon) for +10 to attack, and he's only given up one feat to get there.


That said, what is the actual text of Divine Metamagic? I seem to remember that elemental turning would not work to power it. I'll see if I can't dig up the text of the feat exactly.
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  #78  
Unread 29th of December, 2011, 05:21
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According to the info I could find, Divine Metamagic only works with undead turning. Elemental turning won't power [Divine] feats in general.
Otherwise sure. We sort of already have a "warrior cleric dude" if it matters.

There's some stuff here that I just found on Google, including a discussion on ways to get more turns and what's usable or not.

e: Also, Persistent Spell (the one that makes a personal spell 24 hours) requires 6 slots, so using DMM on it would need 7 turns. Also it has Extend Spell as a pre-req but that only means you'd need to shuffle the feat order around.
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Last edited by zachol; 29th of December, 2011 at 05:26.
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  #79  
Unread 29th of December, 2011, 05:23
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Yep - it says spend turn/rebuke undead attempts. So the turning attempts for water and air creatures from Fire and Earth domains can't power divine metamagic.

Highlighted the operative text.
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  #80  
Unread 29th of December, 2011, 05:52
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“ Originally Posted by zachol # We sort of already have a "warrior cleric dude" if it matters. ”

Alright, figured the cleric was a healer and I wouldn't want to double up a spot in the party. What would the party benefit from the best?

And, thanks for pointing out the inaccuracy of my source of power builds (former DM who forced us to make the most insane builds because he thought 1st level adventures should include some sort of demi-god monsters as casual mobs).
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  #81  
Unread 29th of December, 2011, 06:35
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In 3.5, divine metamagic is fine in a vacuum, so long as you do not allow any items that grant additional turn undead attempts, such as night sticks (Libris Mortis). It is extremely easy to break the game with that feat, so you'd need to keep an eye on it, especially when it is combined with metamagic feats like persistent spell.

The key to remember here with it, is that not only does the use of it require feats, but spell slots as well, and the turn undead attempts.

Adamant is pretty exclusively a healer, he just happens to be hard to hit.

BTW, persistent spell requires extend spell as a prerequisite to take it, so you'd need to spend 3 feats just to get the combo. You'd have to be human to have 3 feats at level 4. Persistent spell modifies spells by 6 spell levels, so you'd need to spend 7 turn attempts to apply it to a spell with divine metamagic. It wouldn't be useful for you at this point.

EDIT: That's what I get for not checking the most recent page, zachol beat me to it.

Last edited by Linklegacy77; 29th of December, 2011 at 06:40.
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  #82  
Unread 29th of December, 2011, 12:10
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Looking at your party make-up I see you have a Front line trip specialist, a blade thrower, a Scout with rogue skills, a Utilitarian Sorc, and a Heal-tank. I am thinking you might benefit from a damage focused caster type....How would a Warlock (if allowed) or a Psion fit with your group?

Also, are you playing with psionics are magic or with the two power types being separate?
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  #83  
Unread 29th of December, 2011, 12:13
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The two power types are separate, so an anti-magic field wouldn't affect psions, and an anti-psionic field wouldn't affect arcane/divine casters.

Warlock I could allow. I'd like see the build first, but I'm familiar enough with the class that I'm cool with it. In fact, it's my favorite of the "new" base classes.
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  #84  
Unread 29th of December, 2011, 12:17
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gonna go with full warlock. For feats/invocations I need to dig out my Comp arcane and pick em out. Edit: leaning toward taking Point blank shot, and precise shot as my two base feats. Aaaand probably Rapid reload if I go human for a race.

btw the link for the info on the setting seems to be dead...can you repost it?

Last edited by Captain Gavis; 29th of December, 2011 at 13:04.
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  #85  
Unread 29th of December, 2011, 19:27
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“ Originally Posted by Captain Gavis # gonna go with full warlock. For feats/invocations I need to dig out my Comp arcane and pick em out. Edit: leaning toward taking Point blank shot, and precise shot as my two base feats. Aaaand probably Rapid reload if I go human for a race.

btw the link for the info on the setting seems to be dead...can you repost it?
”
Wait, why would you go with rapid reload if you're going to play a warlock?

Eldritch Blast is pretty much flat out better than a crossbow.
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  #86  
Unread 29th of December, 2011, 22:44
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And if a construct walks in the room? Or something with a high sr? Or since it is a game show antimagic fields are an option
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  #87  
Unread 29th of December, 2011, 22:54
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Eldritch blast works on all constructs except for golems, which are specifically immune to magic, but IIRC, there aren't any golems we can expect to fight at our level. They also have sufficiently high DR that a crossbow can't hurt them, unless you're firing adamantium bolts.

An Antimagic field is a theoretical possibility, although it's pretty damn unlikely at 4th level. That said, it's probably a bad call to spend a feat to be slightly better in a rare circumstance like that, especially at this level.

I'd suggest weapon focus: Eldritch blast instead, as an example of a more useful feat, especially given the warlock BAB (the fact that it's a touch attack makes it much more viable). There are a number of other useful options as well in core that I would suggest over rapid reload.
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  #88  
Unread 30th of December, 2011, 00:58
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Wasn't sure if Weapon focus could be used on Eldrich blast and the "choice" of rapid reload was not absolute just yet still have to pour through the Comp. Arcane for feats and was also considering Ability focus to increase my DCs by +2. As to the blast vs the construct 1) the half damage vs inanimate objects can be loosely intepreted as anything not "living" by the DM wanted to be prepaired in the event of said interpretation and 2) animated objects are both constructs and of a CR low enough for a 4th level party not to mention if psionics get into the mix astral constructs would count and be low enough CR.


That being said have to look up the point buy in the PHB when I get home (at work right now) but will go with high CHA high DEX (unless someone knows of a feat like Zen Archery but for Cha) and those three feats (PBS, Precise Shot, Weapon focus). Chain Shirt (or equivelent modern armor), Long Spear (for close quarters with hideous blow if I have enough invocations), and other random goodies (rave glow sticks come to mind)...story line will be thought up today and posted probably by tomorow night.

Still need a link to the stuff on campaign features (i.e. mugging)

Last edited by Captain Gavis; 30th of December, 2011 at 01:16.
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  #89  
Unread 30th of December, 2011, 01:16
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Your previous DM sounds like kind of a jerk.
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  #90  
Unread 30th of December, 2011, 01:18
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He was....first campaign I ever did with him (also first 3.5 ever) we were level 10 and had to retrieve a god-item from a balor...and another one from a dragon that "made ancient dragons look young and you poop your pants." rest of the party knew his style and made gods....I made a bard and twiddled my thumbs.



EDIT:
Is this the point buy you are using?

Each stat begins at 8.
A stat of 9 costs 1 point.
A stat of 10 costs 2 points.
A stat of 11 costs 3 points.
A stat of 12 costs 4 points.
A stat of 13 costs 5 points.
A stat of 14 costs 6 points.
A stat of 15 costs 8 points.
A stat of 16 costs 10 points.
A stat of 17 costs 13 points.
A stat of 18 costs 16 points

Last edited by Captain Gavis; 30th of December, 2011 at 01:29.
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  #91  
Unread 30th of December, 2011, 02:32
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I think we changed the mugging rules anyway?
Also yeah that sounds right for point buy.
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  #92  
Unread 30th of December, 2011, 03:44
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Yeah, it's not true that constructs are objects. Also, eldritch blast does untyped damage IIRC, which isn't halved by objects even if it were true. Only certain types of damage (elemental damage excluding acid and sonic) deal half damage to objects.

Ability focus will work, but you have to choose a specific invocation for it, so that may not be worthwhile for you. You can't choose eldritch blast in general, but a specific form of it.

That is correct for point buy.
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  #93  
Unread 30th of December, 2011, 06:43
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Captain Gavis, I'll PM you a link where you can download the Xcrawl pdf. I took it offline once everyone had it because the pdf has my information in all the watermarks and whatnot, and I don't really need that leaking out onto the wider web.
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  #94  
Unread 30th of December, 2011, 19:57
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I don't have my book in front of me but there are blast invocations that allow you to change your blasts into producing an actual elemental effect like changing it to acid. If your worried about being able to affect golems with your blast or things that have SR then that is the blast type for you. I think it is higher level than we are starting out at though. But it may be appropriate by the time you get there.

I would suggest the "monster feats" like Quicken Spell-like Ability but we are too low level for it to be effective as it changes the level of your invocation to the point it would be uncastable especially if you take any of the blast invocations that also change it's level.

In short, I think Link is giving good advice on feat choice here. Also, everyone was right about the persistant spell cheese not working off any turn attempts that are not "turn undead". Actually, for the same reason a strict reading of Night Sticks also makes them unusable for divine metamagic as it grants "turn attempts" rather than "turn undead". Whether it is RAW and/or RAI is disputable, I suppose. I, for one, am glad that the wording is different enough to disallow as adding that to an already broken combo seems like it would make a game even less fun to play in with that sort of character.

P.S. - If some guy ever comes up and introduces me as "Captain Gavis' old GM" I'm going to punch them in the throat.

Happy to have you aboard, cap'n!
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  #95  
Unread 31st of December, 2011, 01:13
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“ Originally Posted by Lune # I don't have my book in front of me but there are blast invocations that allow you to change your blasts into producing an actual elemental effect like changing it to acid. If your worried about being able to affect golems with your blast or things that have SR then that is the blast type for you. I think it is higher level than we are starting out at though. But it may be appropriate by the time you get there.

I would suggest the "monster feats" like Quicken Spell-like Ability but we are too low level for it to be effective as it changes the level of your invocation to the point it would be uncastable especially if you take any of the blast invocations that also change it's level.

In short, I think Link is giving good advice on feat choice here. Also, everyone was right about the persistant spell cheese not working off any turn attempts that are not "turn undead". Actually, for the same reason a strict reading of Night Sticks also makes them unusable for divine metamagic as it grants "turn attempts" rather than "turn undead". Whether it is RAW and/or RAI is disputable, I suppose. I, for one, am glad that the wording is different enough to disallow as adding that to an already broken combo seems like it would make a game even less fun to play in with that sort of character.

P.S. - If some guy ever comes up and introduces me as "Captain Gavis' old GM" I'm going to punch them in the throat.

Happy to have you aboard, cap'n!
”
The blast invocation is vitriolic blast, and it's too high level for us at this point in time. Regardless, golems are also too high level for us, so I wouldn't worry about it.
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  #96  
Unread 31st of December, 2011, 01:19
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“ Originally Posted by Lune # I would suggest the "monster feats" like Quicken Spell-like Ability but we are too low level for it to be effective as it changes the level of your invocation to the point it would be uncastable especially if you take any of the blast invocations that also change it's level. ”

The monster feat Quicken Spell-like Ability would indeed be good to have later on, but that feat works differntly than you are thinking. There is no spell level adjustment to the ability exactly since it is only usable 3 times per day, it does however limit you to an ability that is 1/2 caster level-4 (0 at this level) so that would be what renders the feat moot at this point.

EDIT to Link: the blast itself can not have metamagics applied to it only the invocations can....the exception being ability focus (EB) to raise the DC of ALL blast related effects (sickening, dazing, etc)

And big thanks for the welcome...still have to go through the application process of the character concept and finalized build.

Last edited by Captain Gavis; 31st of December, 2011 at 01:35.
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  #97  
Unread 31st of December, 2011, 09:50
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No no Captain Gavis, I meant that the ability focus feat can only be applied to a specific set of invocations (Like Vitriolic Eldritch Spear), but not to Eldritch blast in general and have it apply to all forms of it. I mentioned nothing about metamagics.
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  #98  
Unread 31st of December, 2011, 10:52
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“ Originally Posted by Captain Gavis # And big thanks for the welcome...still have to go through the application process of the character concept and finalized build. ”
Yeah, you're pretty much in. I promised you a slot way back in April if someone dropped after Lune came in, and I think you'll fit in fine. There's actually a halfway decent point to add you in soon, too.
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  #99  
Unread 31st of December, 2011, 11:19
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“ Originally Posted by Linklegacy77 # No no Captain Gavis, I meant that the ability focus feat can only be applied to a specific set of invocations (Like Vitriolic Eldritch Spear), but not to Eldritch blast in general and have it apply to all forms of it. ”
You did not.... complete arcane does however in the eldrich blast description
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  #100  
Unread 5th of January, 2012, 05:36
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the warlock is up and fully built/equipped. He has 760g left if there is anything the team needs (even if it's another burning hands spam wand I can use anything not a scroll thanks to decieve item)
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