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  #51  
Unread 24th of May, 2008, 11:09
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It's all about the booty, baby.
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  #52  
Unread 24th of May, 2008, 11:34
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Originally Posted by LightBringer # Oh lord, here we go with Hero Forge.
Mreh?

Jacks lives forever in our hearts and minds!

Awwwww! *sniff*


Just bear in mind, if Jacks lives on in your hearts and minds, he very well may poison them.
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  #53  
Unread 24th of May, 2008, 13:47
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Wow, I was expecting more of a reaction form Mr. GM.

Doom, I thought it was all about the beer?
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  #54  
Unread 24th of May, 2008, 14:33
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Beer = Booty. Why else would plunder be necessary? The rum is gone because the beer is being drunk. That's why.
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  #55  
Unread 24th of May, 2008, 14:49
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OK, now for the real question that's bugging me. Why are we playing in a campaign named after the cutting boards in my kitchen?
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  #56  
Unread 27th of May, 2008, 12:49
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And another question - am I reading it right that any time I change shapes, I destroy my magic items by virtue of size change?

In an epic campaign, that could be fatal. I have no issue with getting Wild Armor, but if the magic items (which can't have the wild feature added to them) are destroyed when I shift, methinks it's back to the drawing board....
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  #57  
Unread 27th of May, 2008, 13:57
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No, they just meld into your form and become useless until you shift back. Anything you put on after you shift functions normally, but when you shift back, it falls to the ground at your feet. I'm not sure if there's a provision for items that will fit both humanoid and non-humanoid shapes, like amulets, but I think they meld.
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  #58  
Unread 27th of May, 2008, 23:48
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Lol, those are some nice looking cutting boards, and they are made in USA. I'll have to remember that next time I buy some for the wife.
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  #59  
Unread 27th of May, 2008, 23:54
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This is us this weekend, sunburnt and goofy.

I discovered on the request, that we had no pictures of us together at all that weren't 5 years old. One or the other of us always is holding the camera. So we taught the 6 year old how to take a picture, and this is what you get.
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  #60  
Unread 28th of May, 2008, 00:29
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I look awesome.

No no, I'm not naming a campaign after kitchen supplies, but rather after this. I think that it may apply to the characters that you develop, in one way or another.

On that same end, a. I hope everyone had a nice vacation and b. let's get back to it.

Okay, I want you all to start thinking about motivation, specifically motivation to rise to the point of becoming epic.

As an example, an orc chieftain can claim clan leadership, oust his warring neighbors, and conquer a kingdom or two, but after level 10 or so, what motivates the orc to move beyond the boundaries of warlord and into something greater? Even a war that reaches across the world isn't going to propel this chieftain into the ranks of truly epic. Perhaps he called a favor on a powerful outsider, who, for payment, took his firstborn, which turned out to be unacceptable. The path to this outsider is long and sure to kill our chieftain unless he were to become the greatest warlord the orcs have known; the right hand of Grummush. After another decade of toil, pain, and heartache, he finally is able to reach the outsider, who refuses to return the child, who is now infused with the heart of a fiend. Forced to now kill both the outsider and his lost heir, our chieftain is left in the dark depths of the abyss, a sworn hunter of demons, but not because they remind him of his old quarry, but rather because his rage and loathing for himself is so great that surely there is a demon powerful enough to kill him and end his pain, so that he may see again the face of his firstborn in the great hall of Grummush.

This is a combat heavy example, and one that I'm not sure even conveys what I mean. The small idea has no place in epic. It either has to be the blind adherence to a single ideal, or the understanding of the really big picture. LG and I were discussing this yesterday, actually, so perhaps she can give a better description of what I mean.
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  #61  
Unread 28th of May, 2008, 01:04
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Originally Posted by Doombot # No, they just meld into your form and become useless until you shift back. Anything you put on after you shift functions normally, but when you shift back, it falls to the ground at your feet. I'm not sure if there's a provision for items that will fit both humanoid and non-humanoid shapes, like amulets, but I think they meld.


Well, that's a LITTLE Better - but not what the Monster Manual I describes. And still, I plan on living most of my life as a hybrid - does that mean every time I become human I lose most of my toys? Blah!




And Chris, I'll get there - probably Wednesday. Right now I'm trying to nail all my nuts and bolts down (which is very hard, as you might guess!), cuz if I don't play a Werebear, that changes things significantly for me, ey?
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  #62  
Unread 28th of May, 2008, 01:23
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From the SRD, referring to Alternate Form:

Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.
many items (rings, amulets, capes, belts) are able to transfer into the alternate form. Things like guantlets or gloves, boots, and any armor (that isn't wilding) would not be, but, as you can see, isn't torn up. We can always make some alternate considerations, as well.
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  #63  
Unread 28th of May, 2008, 01:32
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Well, I'm certainly willing to pay extra to have certain items continue to function between sizes. But as I said, I plan on playing mainly in Hybrid form. Only problem is that makes speech difficult. Ey? Makes me wonder if werebear is a good roleplaying choice.
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  #64  
Unread 28th of May, 2008, 01:33
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Oh, and that reminds me, how much GP of gear can we buy?
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  #65  
Unread 28th of May, 2008, 01:34
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Simulpost, slight edit. Wow you post fast, Maddog.

I wouldn't worry too much about not having anything ready yet. I still haven't picked a gender, race, or solidified much beyond a beginning. Much less the "nuts and bolts." We did discuss things over the vacation, but I'm still having a few issues I'm considering myself before I even get to crunching numbers.

On being "epic" -- I'll try and explain it, though I think you did just fine, C. Natural ability simply isn't going to get you EPIC. You could be a level 10 or 15 and never ever encounter anything that is going to be a problem to you ever again, be the king of your hill, unless you went out looking for trouble, or somehow trouble kept looking for you. All the goblins in the world won't make your level rise. To become epic, you have to have overcome some major challenges. It's really simple concept really, but you're not green behind the ears the way a low level character presumably is. You're not longer thrust into a situation you never expected or are ill prepared for. Even if its a surprise, you've been through enough stuff to have a really strong view of things, a strong enough view to do more than just survive. You've sought out and overcome crazy obstacles to become who you are. You won't have just become this awesome without some very powerful motivation, most likely inner.

I think the rest of the things we talked about are pretty easy to see, flowing from that idea. Epic is simpler to create that motivation for an evil character than a good one, as well. It's even harder if it is something with low intellectual skills.
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  #66  
Unread 28th of May, 2008, 01:52
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Originally Posted by LadyGlutter # Simulpost, slight edit. Wow you post fast, Maddog.

Day off + DSL


I can dig what you're saying about Epic characters - I just hadn't considered it. I guess I just had assumed that there's a natural progression of bad guys to fight that you can gradually climb your way up the ladder. But you're asking what motivates someone to pursue that ladder past normal levels. What drive?

Now let me ask a question for perspective - How does a 25 level character relate to a deity in terms of power, etc? I've never actually PLAYED with Deities as other than just...erhm...distant power sources with superior will and power. Does that still hold true? Or do we now threaten the deities or our world? I seem to recall that a 20th lvl monk is a minor deity.

I ask this because that's where a lot of motivation comes from, at least in my opinion. Granted, it doesn't have to be the ONLY - but the way DnD is set up, deities motivate a lot of characters in their pursuits.

So if a cleric becomes more powerful than his Deity, does he lose the power from his Deity and thereby become powerless?
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  #67  
Unread 28th of May, 2008, 02:56
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I'm still trying to work up a character background for the grapple-monkey. If it gives me too much trouble, I think I might 'port in a much-advanced Aros from RHoD. I have a least a few ideas for that: some magical, cataclysmic event that shuttled him from Eberron to Athas, warped him a little, and probably caused some memory loss (owing to the fact that we haven't completed RHoD yet, so I can't very well make up stuff that hasn't happened ), and is trying to find a way back home. One major obstacle is that he distrusts/hates spellcasters. Is this cool with you, Chris?
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  #68  
Unread 28th of May, 2008, 06:44
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It is one of the very pieces of the puzzle that is Aros. I'd expect nothing less! It'd be super-easy for Aros to return to Eberron, but that turns into super-hard without magic. If he's not totally against spells, perhaps there is something preventing him from returning.

Thanks, LG, I think that definitely rounded out what I was trying to say.

Now to the question that I'm sure you folks have pondered at least once since we've started:

With the concept of a Divine Rank characters really can't be compared to deities, even on a little bitty:big scale. Divine rank, and all of the crunchy that goes along with it, simply means that the deity is exponentially more cool than you, even with your epic shininess.

Applying the SRD, someone like Heracles (arguably an epic character) also has a divine rank of 0, (because his daddy was Zeus), which gives him some nifty things. You still couldn't kill him, because Zeus would jimmy the lock on Hades cage, and Heracles would be free to cause havoc again. That divine rank of 0 would be the very closest that your epic characters could attain, as far as the divine is concerned. Mortals have a null Divine Rank, not even a 0.

The Powers (that is the width and breadth of the powers throughout the universe) are beyond mortal ken, and suffer them accordingly, but cannot really be harmed themselves. Their servants and their manifestations, however, can.

The Powers, when they manifest on the Prime, or another non-home plane, are only (at least) Proxies (Think Farina, LG), that is, normal folks granted a portion of divine power or (at most) avatars, that is, a greater portion of the essence of the deity forced into the plane, subject to the laws of the world in question. That is why (in the Dragonlance mythos) Takhisis was able to be harmed on the Prime Material, but Raistlin couldn't even remotely touch her in the Abyss, even though he was the most powerful wizard in Krynn. Takhisis on the Prime was a very powerful Avatar of her true self, but not the power herself.

All that to say a 25th level character could probably stand on good ground against the Avatar of a Lesser Power (Divine rank of 6 or so), and could probably, with help, defeat a Hero-Deity (an individual with a Divine Rank of 0), though a mortal could not really kill him (because other things would be in play - the Zeus rescue angle).

To the cleric question - since the cleric, even if level 40, is still a mortal, he is still bound by the laws of his existence. The deity he would follow would outstrip his ability to such an extent that you might as well compare a 1st level commoner going up against the level 40 cleric; there really isn't a comparison. In this particular exercise, the deity can simply deny spells to his froward follower. That, right there, turns the extraordinarily powerful priest, someone capable of calling down the very wrath of his deity, into a poor man's fighter. How's that sound?
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Unread 28th of May, 2008, 11:06
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That's about the sum of what I expected to hear. I'd forgot about Divine rank, but nonetheless......
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Unread 28th of May, 2008, 11:19
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You know, I'm getting more and more interested in playing an Epic Aros. I think I'll scrap the Royce Gracie ogre idea.
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  #71  
Unread 28th of May, 2008, 12:03
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Anyone got feedback for me on the issue of the werebear? I'm beginning to think I should look for another concept - what with the issues of speech and magic items.

Last edited by MadDogMaddux; 28th of May, 2008 at 12:57.
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  #72  
Unread 28th of May, 2008, 13:55
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I personally have always liked the concept of a wearbear - epic is the time and place to play one, and you aren't going all "he's the biggest baddest werebear evar" about it, but rather that's just a part of his being - I like that little bit that I've seen.

The magic items issue actually isn't an issue - don't fret over it. Werewolves speak wolf when in hybrid form, yes? Get a minor item that allows folks to understand you, even if you are barking at them. Don't let two mechanical issues sway your choice. I'd like you to think about this character's motivation, though. Where is he going, how did he get there, where does he want to go? I don't mean that literally, either, but rather philosophically.

One thing to keep in mind, too - We aren't on a time crunch here. Take your time and talk things out here, and then we can put the numbers down.

Also (because my mind is running now, sorry) when I set out to make a character (not a class build study, for which HeroForge is awesome) I try to think of the mechanical aspect of the character in the last stages. I may think of an archetype, or a literary figure, perhaps something I overheard that struck my fancy, or, when writing something will come out that might be unsuitable for prose, but might work pretty well for roleplay. I'll take that little nugget, mull it over in my mind a few days, and start laying out the foundation of the character, often first choosing things like general outlook, demeanor, habits, things of this nature, then piece those together with bigger things, like a possible philosophical belief, loves and hatreds, and keep building, until I've got what I can envision as the character.

Once I'm done with that, I'll start looking for the toolset that fits him or her best. When D&D is the toolbox, I know that my particular tools are going to be a little bigger, a little more unwieldy, so I need to take steps back at what I'm trying to accomplish. I mean, it's one thing to have the idea of a demon hunter, and you can take that idea in a few directions, but D&D serves up big portions, as far as classes are concerned. Would it be best to take levels of Paladin planning on picking up Knight of the Chalice? Well, no, not if he's an Orc Chieftain from the far mountain tribes! What is a knight to him? The toolset doesn't jibe with the character, if only because of the cultural stigma. On the other hand does "Orc Chieftain" = Barbarian with levels in Eye of Grummush? Certainly not. D&D is bad about the stereotype, which can make it difficult to translate a character into a Player Character.

I know that I have a habit of spending too much time with the "baking bread" aspects of gaming, and character generation is no different. If you like a skillset, but don't like the flavor of the skillset, why take the flavor with you? The barbarian attached at the hip of the orc is probably the worst culprit, but I'm sure each of you have seen examples of this issue.

I... forgot where I was going with this. Oh yeah! Play what you want, and I want you to really think about your character, about that character's motivation. Once that's down, then worry about the crunchy bits. I think everyone's doing well, a lot of ideas have been presented, but please don't feel like there is some press of time, a deadline to be had.
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  #73  
Unread 28th of May, 2008, 23:38
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To all that above, if Doombot is planning on playing something anti-spell caster based, I suppose that is a big enough thing to swing the dynamic of the entire party pretty heavily. So I'm gonna be nosy, and let someone rap my knuckles if I'm overstepping my bounds.

Does Aros hate clerics, druids, and mages with equal venom?
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  #74  
Unread 29th of May, 2008, 00:08
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One of the hangups of Occult Slayers and similar types is when they take damage. If they're magic haters, will they refuse to be healed magically?



Thanks for the thoughts, Chris. Malek is actually a character I've got a good idea on background for - which is why I'm nuts 'n bolts-ing right now. But as you wish, I can shift gears and get you more of his character - prolly later today.
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  #75  
Unread 29th of May, 2008, 00:22
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Dude, Royce Gracie rocks. He was freaking awesome in the first UFC's.

I think the were-bear idea is pretty cool as well. I'm still kind of wondering why you haven't made more of a mention of Chris' desire to bump it to dire were-bear?

I'm kind of the opposite of Chris. I look at classes and crunchy while I roll the personality and motivations around in my head. To me some classes just fit some personalities better. Obviously if you, as a player, prefer fighting types of characters, you are not going to go with a passive type personality, and vice-versa. For me it's about rolling all the aspects around until they click together, and you have character and crunchy at the same time. Starting at one end, personality only, or the other, crunchy only, leaves me with having to force something, or make sacrifices that then cut into my picture of the total package. Tweaking something like a feat or a skill doesn't usually cut to deep, but if I have to sacrifice a whole piece of personality, then that is not cool.

Then there is the whole group dynamic which LadyGlutter is tackling now.
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