Playable Spell Weaver

[Dust]

After reading through the Spell Weaver entry in Monster Manual 2, I decided to try to put together a way to actually play one. It would require a very liberal DM to allow one of these in a game, but maybe I can convince someone.

Remember that a Spell Weaver advances by HD, not by class. This becomes significant when determining ECL, since a Spell Weaver can never take any PrCs.

General Advancement is as Monstrous Humanoid. EHD is eliminated, since this is going by a level by level basis, not a set template. In other words, this Spell Weaver advancement table that I'm setting up starts at first level:
Hit dice: d8
Base Attack Bonus: As fighter (equal to HD)
Good Saving Throws: Reflex and Will
Skill Points: (2 x Int score)
Feats: 1 + Int Bonus at first level, +1 per 4 HD

Spell Weaver Specific Stats:
+5 natural AC bonus
-4 Str, -4 Con, +4 Int, +4 Cha, +2 Wis, +2 Dex
Darkvision 60ft
SR 11 + HD
Skills: As Sorcerer's Skill list
Spell Like Abilities: Always Active - See Invisibility, at will - detect magic, invisibility, 1/day - plane shift. Caster level equals spell weaver's effective sorcerer level.
Spells: A spell weaver casts spells as a sorcerer two levels higher than its Hit Dice.
Chromatic Disk: Spell Weaver's begin play with a Chromatic Disk (see Spell Weaver entry; basically, it allows a Spell Weaver to cast an additional ten spell levels in a day.
Immune to Mind-Affecting Effects
Shielded Mind: Immune to telepathy and mind reading. Creatures attempting to do so much succeed a Will save (DC 17) or being affected as it by a confusion spell for 1d6 days. This effect can be dispelled or removed with a heal effect.
Spell Weaving: A Spell Weaver can cast more than one spell simultaneously, as long as the sum of the spell levels is six or less.
Telepathy: Other Spell Weaver's only, range up to 1,000 miles.
Communication: A Spell Weaver cannot speak, and must communicate to others through written messages.

ECL +5, due to the communication problems and lack of PrCs.

So, what do you folks think? Too powerful? Not powerful enough? Something that should be toned down or brought up? Give me your thoughts and criticisms.

[SponkleofInfini]

I don't have the MM2, but I will offer my input. You would have a to be a libral DM but this creature isn't so bad.

Maybe make the spell casting as the Spellweavers HD.

Maybe a slight increase to the ECL, maybe +8 or so.

[Dust]

That's good advice for a making a playable Spell Weaver. The caster level = HD +2 is straight from the MM2, but alterations are likely to be required to turn the creature into a playable race. The MM2 doesn't think that it should be one, as the Spell Weaver doesn't have a 'Spell Weaver Characters' entry.

I think that +8 AND taking down the caster level makes a Spell Weaver rather undersireable as a player option, though. In the book the Spell Weaver is presented as having 10HD and being CR 10. It would cast as a 12th level caster, so it's implied that the creatures of the MM2 think that the Spell Weaver's physical draw backs out weight its magical power. An 12th level NPC sorcerer has a CR of 12, two lower than a Spell Weaver of similar magical power. That's why I figured ECL should be kept around +5 or so, and the caster level remain at HD +2.

But that's just me stating my case. If I were DMing, I think I'd probably up the ECL too. So maybe you're right Sponk, and +8 is a better option.

... Although, as a playable characters go, that means that essentially (especially when thinking about Epic games, which I am) we're saying that a 12 HD Spell Weaver is equally powerful to a 20th level human sorcerer. I don't think that's true. I do think that a 15 HD Spell Weaver is equal to 20th level human sorcerer though...

:tsk: It's so confusing! I'm in uncharted territory here!

:sleep: (think zen... think zen... ommmm.... ommm)

(breath in... breath out) Ahhh...

I think I'm going to need some other opinions. We're charting risky territory. If I'm going to try to convince Sponk to let a Spell Weaver into one of his games, then I want it to be balanced enough so that I don't have to trash it right away or see it eaten by a dragon in its first encounter.

[SponkleofInfini]

I am happy for the spell weavers casting ability to remain HD +2 and wouldn't mind if the ECL was lower.

[Dust]

That's cool. Let's see what some other people say, though. I want to go into this with all the tweaking done, and that requires a commitee.

[Dust]

Anybody... anybody...? We could use a little help.

Going once...

[Skreem]

I actually don't mind it as listed, except I do agree with Sponkle that it should at least be ECL +8 (if not more).

An extra 10 spell levels per day (free item), +2 HD for spell calculations, permanent counter-attack to mind spells, a fighter with d8, but 2 good saving throws, Natural AC +5, plus spells as a sorceror, and can cast up to 6 spells simultaneous (albeit 1st level)!

A beefed-up sorc with cleric HP (ok, so the -4 con kinda counters this)! And you want only ECL +5 because you can't talk?!? Just cast Silent image - or any of a slew of other options. With +10 spell-levels per day... that's not a big handicap.

Lack of PrC? Who needs a PrC when your SR goes up every level? Sure, once you hit Epic levels, it becomes more limiting, but by then you have +30 SR. You still have +2 to spells... Not to mention you could just continue to gain HD! As a monstrous character, you're not stuck to the 20 level cap that the classes are.

I think +8 is still generous - consider that Monte Cook beleives a nymph to be a +12 (IMSM) or higher ECL.

[Skreem]

Reading back over things, realized I didn't address your comments about the 12 HD SpellWeaver vs 20 level sorc - well, unfortunately, ECL's don't quite work like that.

ECL's are designed to keep a PC on even footing with the rest of the PC's. Not all ECL's relate directly to fighting power.

However, if you take that 12 HD Spell weaver against a 20 level sorc, you might be surprised how reasonable it does. Ok, sure, the SR is useless. However, you walk up and cast ALL your 1st level Magic missiles in round 1. That's 6 times 5d4+5 or 30d4+30. Hmmm... at an average of 2.5 per die, that's 105 damage.... that just WORKS! (unless of course he has shield or other protections blah blah blah... high level hypothetical battles are always a pain :)) That sorc only has 20d4 + Con bonus in HP. If he has +2 Con bonus or less (which is a whopping 90 HP... even with +6 item for a +5 bonus it's only 150 ), you've probably just KO'd him :dead:! Remember 32 point buy is considered a HIGH STAT game! No matter what the average game played here is, the books are based on standard 25 point buys!

This strategy will work as a 9HD SW! Maybe it should be a +11 ECL?? :D :roll:

[Dust]

I hadn't considered the Magic Missile effect. With that, I think the +8 is a better ECL. Any more than that causes problems. Remember that caster level becomes very important at Epic levels, because almost everyone has SR. A +8 ECL Spell Weaver at ECL 20 only has a caster level of 14. A 20th level Cleric can cast a spell to give himself SR 32, almost impenetrable to a 14th level caster.

And don't just write off the lack of PrCs. For an arcane spell caster of 20th level, you should have a ton of special abilities and powerful class features. The Spell Weaver won't have access to these.

[SponkleofInfini]

+8 may be a bit high, I am thinking +6 though........that may be more reasonable for you. I can't go any lower then that, if some more people can offer some oppinions on this it would be much appreciated.

[Skreem]

But Dust - you're getting several VERY KEWL abilities that are of Prestige Class power at level 1!

I do agree that Caster level has importance in an epic-level campaign, but that's the disadvantage of taking an ECL race...

However, unless others bring other evidence to the fore-front, I'm happy with Sponk's rating at +6 for this game... as you're on my team!! WOOT! :)

[SponkleofInfini]

It's not set in stone yet.

[The_Friendly_Fiend]

The part that scares me is that ability to cast up to six levels of spells simultaneously. Mind you this is without affecting the spell's caster level. Not even epic level characters can do this. Think about this, during round one you cast haste, shield, mirror image and then with the extra partial action you can cast something else without limit to the spell. And then there's the example of magic missiles, yuck!

My second problem is with the general front loading of powers. You get the spell weaving, the spell resistance,the +5 natural armor, the feats equal to 1+INT mod with your +4 INT, +2 effective levels for spell casting and 10 bonus levels of spells to use per day.

It seems to me the only way you're ever going to die is through the use of poison or other effect that weakens or targets your fortitude. But with some magic items, you can put a stop to some of these effects.

Speaking of death, if you say they're a CR 10 creature, six magic missiles against a level 10 mage/sorcerer in group of four 10th level PCs will kill him out right on the first round. A 10th level d4 characer and a +2 con has at most 60 hit points. Six MM creates 30 missiles, with a minimum of 60 points of damage.

This monster is an example of an ill conceived player killer. It wouldn't ever exist in one of my games, nor would it exist in any sane GM's games. It goes together with the Tarasque. They're interesting powerful monsters that only power gamers would think about tackling. So, if the monster won't make it into my game, what do you suppose would happen if someone requested to play them as a PC? It ain't going to happen.

However, if you're looking to keep them play balanced, you can always take a page out of basic D&D and write them as a monterous class starting from the very bottom. Start with your basics and as they go up in levels/hit dice they begin to learn new powers. Basically take away all of their special abilities and add them later.
********************
Would it be too much trouble or too difficult to break their powers down so they look something like this? For one, if you can space out their powers, there's some sense of achievement, and two you don't have to start with a riddiculously high ECL.

Take the following with a grain of salt. It was the best I could do with the books, without cross referencing the real saving throws and what a slapping of ideas I could come up with in just a few minutes. The levels go on, but I didn't bother to take it beyond level 13. If you want, someone else can fill in those blanks. I think I also forgot the bonus feats.


Level BAB Fort Ref Will Specials
1 + 1 +0 +2 +2 SR 11+level, Improved Spellcasting, Natrual Armor +1
Telepathy 1,000'/level, Chromatic Disk +1/level up to +10
2 + 2 +0 +3 +3 Detect Magic 1/day
3 + 3 +1 +3 +3 Invisibility 1/day, Natrual Armor +2
4 + 4 +1 +3 +3 See Invisible, Multi-cast 2
5 + 5 +1 +4 +4 Shielded Mind
6 + 6 +2 +4 +4 Multi-cast 3, Natrual Armor +3
7 + 7 +2 +4 +4
8 + 8 +2 +5 +5 Multi-cast 4
9 + 9 +3 +5 +5 Natrual Armor +4
10 +10 +3 +5 +5 Plane Shift 1/day, Multi-cast 5
11 +11 +3 +6 +6
12 +12 +4 +6 +6 Multi-cast 6, Natrual Armor +5
13 +13 +4 +6 +6

[Setzer Gabbiani]

Just a note about the saves: The good saves go like this:
+2/3/3/4/4/5/5/6/6/7/7/8/8/9/9/10/10/11/11/12. You have it every 3 levels like the bad saves.

Also, this is insane. Then again, I don't have the epic level handbook -- and it damn well better be from it.

[Dust]

Fiend, wouldn't that progression table make the Spell Weaver more powerful in the end, since it gets rid of ECL?

And Setzer, I can say that epic level stuff is insane. I kid you not. In A World Aflame, I was one level away from being able to do 900 damage... per action! It's madness I tells you, madness! A certain amount of Power Gaming is required, or you'll get eaten alive by Epic Monsters.

[The_Friendly_Fiend]

I don't think I said to drop the entire ECL. I just proposed that you balance out the abilities. Still, I don't think I'd ever allow something like this to ever be seen in a game.

[SponkleofInfini]

I wil say no to this for simplicity sake.....sorry Dust.

[Dust]

That's cool. Too bad, but I'll find something else.

Now, do I go with my Dwarf Paragon, or do I go with something else? One thing I've found about Paragons, because of the ECL they tend to be pretty boring. Mmm...

I don't know. I get a character to you pretty soon though. I might create a custom race, just to further complicate things 8) I figure if there was ever a time to go way out there and do something funky, it's in Battle Royal.

[Altanira]

Races that advance by HD can also advance by character class. Witness a large part of the Wizards.com Fight Club monsters.

[Dust]

You'd think that'd be so, but acording to MM2 Monsterous Humanoids can't take character classes and advance only by HD.

[Altanira]

That's just calling out to be house-ruled, or to be replaced by the rules on the Wizards/com website Fight Club. Anything with an Int above 2 should be able to gain character class levels.

[Dust]

Mmm... I agree with you. A house rule about this sort of thing would be a very good idea. Still, for the Spell Weaver, you'd have to get a very, very accepting DM. It's a big can of worms that nobody wants to open. Can't say I blame them. I probably wouldn't want to have anything to do with it either, if I were DMing.

[The_Friendly_Fiend]

If it's such a Pandora's box waiting to be opened, why'd you have to post it? :S

[Dust]

(shrugs) I thought I could make it work, and I wanted the chance to try.

[The_Friendly_Fiend]

Then again, open discussion is always a good thing. Getting fresh ideas can never be a bad thing. :)

[Kahluah]

Dust, just one question. Where are you getting those stat increases and decreases from?

Judging from what is in the MMII that I have in front of me at the moment, the stat increases should be as follows:
Str -2
Dex +6
Con-2
Int +8
Wis +6
Cha +6

Personally, I wouldn't even consider allowing a player to use the spell-weaver as a PC race. Just not my cup of tea, really.. *shrugs*

[Dust]

I thought those stat increases were too high. I wanted to keep the ECL low, so I changed them.

[Setzer Gabbiani]

I'm not sure where Dust found the Monstrous Humanoid with class rule in the MM 2 (Haven't really looked though), but that's not important. What's important is that the Abeils (The very first monster in the MM 2) are Monstrous Humanoids and advance entirely by class -- same with MM 1's Yuan-Ti. So basically it depends on how "human" or not the Monstrous Humanoids are. Really freaky ones probably won't, but semi-humanoid ones (Like the bug-people Thri-Kreen) could.

Also, I wouldn't let them play as a PC race unless an official ECL was given (Checks Epic Level Handbook)... Nope, but you can play as a large, undead killer baby.

[Dust]

I don't trust the ECLs in any book except for the DM's guide. The ones in the ELH are a little low, and the ones in the MM2 are extremely high. The way that D&D approaches ECLs in different books is a long way from uniform, and I think it's best to work out ECLs with individual DMs until they seem to figure it out.

[Skreem]

I think it's a case of each writer has their own ideas. Unless they come up with some sort of standard - ECLs are never going to be consistent.