The Gauntlet Challenge Discussion

[Lord Twig]

I was thinking of a gauntlet challenge. Not like the challenge rating challenge where you face increasingly tougher creatures, but instead a path that goes through many types of different challenges all based on the level of the characters. So there might be monsters, traps, obstacles magic and otherwise. Whoever gets the farthest wins.

The Challenge

A mysterious Outsider has a standing challenge to all adventurers. Seven gems have been hidden in a gauntlet of deadly peril. Navigate his gauntlet in less than seven hours, find all the gems, emerge from the other side, and you will be rewarded! The price to enter is 5,000 gold, but if you succeed you win 50,000 gold. Your characters have collected the money, or found a sponsor, and are ready to face this challenge.

Build a level 10 character to navigate a gauntlet of deadly encounters and emerge with all seven gems on the other side in less than 7 game hours. Each encounter will be separate, but part of a larger, linier dungeon. Be ready to face anything you might encounter in a “typical” dungeon. No resources will be restored. You have only what you go in with.

Character Creation

One character per player.
32 point buy.
45,000 XP – enough for 10th level.
Monstrous races and template are not allowed. Only the races from the player’s handbook will be accepted.
Each character will have 49,000gp to spend on whatever they need.
Crafting is allowed but will mean a drop in levels due to the XP spent.
Hit points will be max at 1st, half +1 for every level after.
No custom-made items other than potions, wands and staffs created with the rules described in the DMG.
No partially charged items (ex: wands/staffs).
One-use magic items cost double (including magic ammunition. Mundane ammunition is normal price).
If using a manual to increase your intelligence, you gain the increase in skill points at the level that you can first afford the item.
The Leadership feat is not allowed.
The Planar Ally and Planar Binding spells are not allowed.
Spells and abilities or items that generate spell-like effects will be limited to 5th level or lower.
Allowed resources: Player’s Handbook, Dungeon Master’s Guide, Monster Manual, Complete Adventurer, Complete Arcane, Complete Divine, Complete Warrior, Draconomicon, Expanded Psionic Handbook, Spell Compendium.
Spell Resources: Player’s Handbook and Spell Compendium. The Spell Compendium will supersede all other spell resources. If you want to use a spell from another source and do not have the Spell Compendium simply ask and I will check to see if it is in there for you.

The Spirit of the Rules

The purpose of this challenge is to defeat each encounter, by whatever means necessary, and make it through the gauntlet. Any ability that would allow you to completely bypass encounters will be banned. Some of this should be mitigated by the requirement to get the seven gems, one of which will be hidden in each area.
Characters will be posted for other players to review and voice concerns. I will retain final say on whether a character is allowed or not.
Metagaming is discouraged. Knowledge checks using the standard rules will be permitted to decide if your character knows anything about any creature the character may run across.
In this challenge it will be possible for more than one character to win, so feel free to cheer others on with the knowledge that just because they win does not mean that you lose.

The Gauntlet

The Gauntlet is an underground dungeon on the Material Plane. Other than that it is a mystery. You know you will face seven challenges and that you must recover seven gems. That is all.

Winning and Losing

You lose if your character leaves the gauntlet without all seven gems, if the seven hour time limit expires, or if your character is permanently disabled. (Dead, petrified, etc.)

You win if your character exits the gauntlet from the far exit with all seven gems in under seven hours.

[LeadPal]

I was just about to suggest that.

The Running Man Challenge!

Try making it arcane magic themed.

The Running Mage Challenge!

[LuneMoonshadow]

What if the challenge maze/obstacle course was developed by a competitor? Kinda like two level 20 illusionists making each other's obstacles and having to navigate through them?

I'm not sure that it would be interesting enough or even feasible, though. Though it would be amusing to see how money is spent (more on traps and scrolls or more on equipment to get them through the maze?)

[Tashalar]

The Running Mage Challenge!
Awesome. Mages running around while lifting their robes up with both hands. Hilarious. Hm... a comedic challenge then?

I was thinking of a gauntlet challenge. Not like the challenge rating challenge where you face increasingly tougher creatures, but instead a path that goes through many types of different challenges all based on the level of the characters. So there might be monsters, traps, obstacles magic and otherwise. Whoever gets the farthest wins.
Great idea - but how to implement it? That's really the tricky part.

But, hey! I think there's a lot of time left to figure something out that'll be fun. Even if the CR Challenge speeds up again it'll take a very long time still.

[LeadPal]

They should all definitely run through the same dungeon, independantly.

I think that the goal shouldn't be to get as far as possible alive, as that will reward mainly dull defense/speed builds; rather, perhaps it's to collect as many gold pieces as possible? Every room in the dungeon would contain more gold than the last, and a different array of traps and monsters. These serve both to guard the gold and to block progress further into the dungeon.

Monsters can't move out of the dungeon further than the room they started in, but they do follow deeper. So just rushing past monsters to get to the deepest levels is increasingly dangerous, even though every room has the same EL.

[Tashalar]

Yeah, somewhere in the rooms there's a gold coin. Sometimes it's out in the open, sometimes it's floating up in the air, sometimes it's hidden. To 'win' the room, one has to get the gold coin. The one who gets through the rooms alive and has the most coins wins.

Hrhm. Maybe it has one exit and the competitors have to decide themselves when to turn back? Plus, there's got to be some kind of challenge in each room. Trap or monster or.. both?


Seriously, maybe a team of creative DMs is needed for such a challenge?

Monsters can't move out of the dungeon further than the room they started in, but they do follow deeper. So just rushing past monsters to get to the deepest levels is increasingly dangerous, even though every room has the same EL.Makes sense, that way there is more danger involved. Maybe the deeper rooms have more coins but would be more dangerous?

[SlagMortar]

It could have each participant create a room and a character. Then the rooms are strung together and each character has to make it through all the rooms.

[LeadPal]

Seriously, maybe a team of creative DMs is needed for such a challenge?We could take submissions. The DM can then just choose randomly, edit these as desired, and maybe add a couple of their own ideas.

To attract submissions, we could make that a contest in itself. People submit their ideas for "danger rooms" of the given EL, and there's a vote to see which is best-liked by the community. Whoever wins receives a guarrantee that their room will be used in the running man challenge. Also: bragging rights.

Slag's idea could certainly bulk up the dungeon's length, too, if we're eager to get this going sooner.

[LuneMoonshadow]

If the rooms are player made and they run through their own rooms they have an advantage. Likewise, if the rooms are community built and everyone votes on them then they know the hidden traps, etc.

[Linklegacy77]

I think the DM's need to design it separately from everybody else, and run private threads only. Once the competition is over, the threads would be opened.

[LeadPal]

I think that's a very small problem, really. One trick is that the DM can freely edit the rooms as they wish, so you can't be certain you really do know what's in there. But for the most part I think it's best to trust the players not to metagame.

Perhaps we disallow hidden traps in the submissions? (Blantantly obvious or environmental traps can still be used).

[LeadPal]

I think the DM's need to design it separately from everybody else, and run private threads only. Once the competition is over, the threads would be opened.Making the DM design everything is a massive burden, though. (Although, if they're willing and able, more power to them...) And a lot of the fun of the game is in watching, which needs to be facilitated if we're going to use private threads. I think you worry about metagaming too much.

[LuneMoonshadow]

I support a randomly generated gauntlet. Use a book of traps and challenges as well as the CR tables to create a gauntlet room by room with simple dice rolls. No super-intensive work needed.

[LeadPal]

I call boring, but that could work well. S'ppose it shouldn't matter to me, since I probably won't get deeply involved. I am willing to make private and spicier submissions to whoever DMs it, though.

[SlagMortar]

If the rooms are player made and they run through their own rooms they have an advantage. Likewise, if the rooms are community built and everyone votes on them then they know the hidden traps, etc.
But if each player makes exactly one room, then each player only knows about what is in that room. If there's 8 players, then that is 1 out of 8, which is hardly a free pass.

[Linklegacy77]

Yes, but highly creative players could design something nearly impossible for those without the foreknowledge to defeat it.

Thus guarenteeing only they can complete that challenge.

I still believe that the rooms have to be designed by players NOT participating.

[LeadPal]

Yes, but highly creative players could design something nearly impossible for those without the foreknowledge to defeat it.That's why there's a DM reviewing them.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Depending on the level of the players this gauntlet could be very long (considering a 15th level character, for instance, has a lot of resources). Randomizing the gauntlet would be the most energy-efficient and balanced way of handling it, in my opinion.

Also along the lines of player created content, it is important to note that this approach really is only valid for a static reward system (1 point per room, for example) instead of a linear or geometric sequence (1 point, then 2, then 3) because if a player's room is featured later in the sequence then it is worth more than one shown earlier in the gauntlet sequence.

[LeadPal]

True. It would be cumbersome to reduce the rewards for those who play their own room, or to change individual dungeons to ensure that everyone encounters their room at the same point.

I think this should be using fairly low-level characters, simply to keep options manageable. How about level 7?

[Lord Twig]

I think that the DM should be the primary source for the different rooms. Players not participating can make suggestions privately. I also like the one coin per room idea.

I don't think closed threads are necessary, but we might want to wait until everyone gets through a room (or gives up) before starting the next.

As for level somewhere around 10 should be pretty flexible without too much uber-power problems.

Finally, who wants to run it? I am considering it, but if there are others that are willing I might be tempted to just be a player instead.

[LuneMoonshadow]

I will offer my assistance to whoever is running it, but I do not want to dedicate my time to another project at the moment by DMing. If we can get someone to step up to the DMing plate I'll split this thread into a new discussion thread that we can use to start overviewing rules and ways to run it.

[BlackMage]

Heh, this is called Blitzing in anarchy online =) Basically get a mission, get every speed/run buff you can, and then like hell through it with a train of monsters chasing you.


Go go gadget Phantom Steed, Expeditious Retreat, Haste, and Time Stop!

[Lord Twig]

Heh, this is called Blitzing in anarchy online =) Basically get a mission, get every speed/run buff you can, and then like hell through it with a train of monsters chasing you.


Go go gadget Phantom Steed, Expeditious Retreat, Haste, and Time Stop!

That's all great until you run into a wall. You won't be able to just run past everything. ;)

[Darken]

Akin to the gauntlet idea and also player designing rooms, I propose something similiar yet at the same time take some burden from the DM/moderator of the challenge:

Participants will be grouped into teams of 4 (or 3 or 5, depending on number of participants). Each group, in addition to creating their characters, must also create a small dungeon/base/HQ. When everything is done, the two teams will venture into each other's HQ and try to get to the end - the team who reaches the end faster wins.

The interesting part would be that the players will probably be given slightly more wealth than normal to design the dungeon and purchase the materials/npcs/monsters, but at the same time it's still coming out of their wealth - i.e. the players will have to choose between a well-equipped character or a well-defended dungeon.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Sounds like my illusionist idea but less sucky. I also split the appropriate posts into their own discussion thread since this thing seems to be taking on a mind of its own.

Another thing to keep in mind as well is that these ideas, if no consensus can be met, can each be run. No sense in having to decide between an HQ Raid Challenge and a Gauntlet Challenge when they're both awesome ideas.

And lastly, a final thought I had that might make a gauntlet interesting is that rooms don't give gold, but they could give XP so you level up as you go through the dungeon. Could give it an interesting dynamic.

[Darken]

The more I think about it, the more I like the HQ raid idea. If there are more in favor of it relative to other ideas, I'd like to request the challenge to be next in-line after everything related to CRC settles, and I'll run the challenge.

[Crazy Eben]

I ran a big dungeon as part of a contest for a high-level party a couple of years ago, where the parties were told to "clear" the dungeon as soon as possible and not given further instructions on winning conditions :)

It took two sessions to go through IRL, so it would be too long to run via PBP, but some of the more interesting challenges could probably be reused if we're doing the rooms'o'traps. If the level is low-mid, however, it might be best not to include rooms such as the Hall of Mortally Wounded Frost Worms. :evil:

[Benicus]

I like the HQ raid idea and would be willing to participate in it. :)

[Tashalar]

I like both ideas and would participate in both.

Now it just depends on whether LT wants to DM the gauntlet challenge or if Darken gets to go with the HQ Challenge - but I'm sure they'll agree on something. :)

Lastly... we still have a lot of time to figure out the specifics, right? The CR Challenge will probably continue for half a year and the rule "One Challenge / Tournament at a time" stands, eh?

[LuneMoonshadow]

Multiple challenges can be going on, but it's highly frowned upon. :)

I'd like to see both challenges run eventually, since they are both good idea. Don't want to sacrifice one for another.

[Tashalar]

Me neither. The question is only which one comes first.

I guess we'll figure something out... soonish.

[LeadPal]

Rather than making the HQ raid all about getting to the end (which still has a little bit of "go go gadget phantom steed!" in it), why not make it the Capture the Flag Challenge? Not only do the teams have to break into the fortress, but they also have to make their way back without being foiled by their own protections, and may potentially have to contend with other PCs that have stayed behind. The winning condition would be to return both flags to a certain location in each team's fortress.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Capture the Flag could become quite labor intensive, though it would be fun. Might be better to run the HQ Rad Challenge then add on the CTF element in a subsequent challenge. Gives the DM less work as well as pointing out flaws/weaknesses of the design before the CTF element is incorporated.

I know with HEC there were a lot of flaws that needed to be corrected that could have only been realized with an initial test.

[Benicus]

Capture the Flag would be quite fun but as Lune has already pointed out, it'd be a pain in the ass for the DM.

[Doombot]

Nunchukgun posted an idea for a game-type similar to that back on Threbb. He called it "Assassination."

Assassination Version 1.0 -- Nunchukgun

This is a competition set in the Dungeon and Dragons universe, Game Master is myself. Your basic objectives are to protect the king of your castle, while at the same time planning and executing the assassination of the opposing teams king.

• Teams will be 4 on 4 (pending changes to the roster). Teams will be a) randomly selected from a hat by the team captains, or b) appointed by the GM. Deliberation on which choice to be used may follow at will.

The GM will set a map, containing two opposing (and identical) castles. Players will start in their appointed castle, in a central throne room with the king. Castles are on opposing sides of the map, in between is a yet to be determined distance of varying terrain.

• **NOTE** - Each castle is only approachable from three sides: the front, left and right. The back of each castle is directly against an unclimbable cliff face that for all intents and purposes goes up into space. Maximum flying height is 250 ft above ground zero (that is the elevation of the front doors of both castles).

Both Kings will be built and controlled by the GM, using NPC classes. The King will allow himself to be given basic directions from the PC’s, but will not under any circumstances leave his castle. He will be capable of engaging in combat.

All players will abide 100% by the following rules:
1. All characters are to be equivalent to level 10. No monstrous races are allowed, however subraces from the Monster Manuals are permitted (ie: Deep Dwarves, Wood Elves).

2. The following books are legal: Players Handbook, Dungeon Masters Guide, Players Handbook 2, Complete Warrior, Complete Arcane, Complete Adventurer, Complete Divine, Monster Manuals 1,2 and 3

3. All character stats will be purchased using the point-buy system. You will have 32 points for this buy.

4. Hit dice for all characters will be full + Con. Hit Dice for all summons, pets or companions will be half + Con.

5. The following feats will not be permitted: Leadership
6. An allowance of 50,000 gp will be permitted for each character. All material components for spells, traps, or other uses must be purchased before hand and written on your character sheet.

7. All expenses are to be recorded and tallied.

8. All character sheets will be provided to the GM prior to the game day to review for compliance with the rules.

9. It is recommended, although not necessarily required that contact pertaining to character builds and strategy be kept between teams. If Team A knows that Team B’s plan is to fly over all at once, that could be detrimental to Team B’s plan. Also, any attempts to procure information, or the supplication of false information will be strongly frowned upon. Please keep this game fun and fair!

In Game Rules:
1. The King can be told to hide or perform any action within the castle, but will not under any circumstances short of pure force leave the perimeter of the building.

2. After 5 rounds, at least one player from each team MUST have left the castle, with the obvious intention of scouting the area or leaving to infiltrate the opposite teams castle.

3. Keep in mind the whole area has been previously cleared of all humanoids, aside from your groups, and the two kings.

4. Players may set any number of traps (magical or non) within their own castle, provided their own group or their king is not directly endangered by them.


Granted, this is version 1.0, so it probably needs (and underwent) some tweaking, but it's kinda like CTF, but with a twist.

[Linklegacy77]

Regicide. It's an old RTS game style. I like it, and I'd like to participate in this if anyone ever runs it.

[Lord Twig]

I notice that there is still no challenge planned for after the CR Challenge. I would like to officially volunteer to run a Gauntlet challenge.

The challenge I am thinking of is for 10th level characters. There will be a total of 7 "rooms" each with an encounter. The difficulty will start at EL 6 and go up to EL 12. Anyone who gets through the final challenge will win.

Assuming there is enough interest in playing I will start working on the specifics.

[LuneMoonshadow]

I won't be playing in it, but I can offer you assistance if need be (maps or whatever). I'll mark you down for the next Challenge slot.

Thanks for stepping up to the plate. :)

[Tashalar]

I think Darken said something about wanting to host a challenge as well at some point.

Other than that... thanks for the offer, LT! I'll obviously participate. ;)

Don't hurry with the planning though. If Link actually manages to update once a week and each CR taking 4 updates on average (later it will get much more complicated than now), we are still looking at a year.

Yup, a year. :?

[LuneMoonshadow]

If the challenge will seriously take a year, then this challenge will simply have to start before it finishes. When exactly it does so... well, I suppose that depends on how often Link starts updating and when LT wants to start.

[Doombot]

Don't forget that as contestants start dying, Link will be able to update more frequently.

Also, LT, I may be interested in the gauntlet challenge, but I'd like to hear more details about it first.

[Tashalar]

Don't forget that as contestants start dying, Link will be able to update more frequently.Hrhm... okay, more details then:

On average, the challengers are at CR 4 now. There are 10 challengers at the moment, so Link has to update 10 matches. To calculate the duration, it doesn't really matter when someone loses a challenge only what the average CR is that the challengers reach. Now let's say the average CR is 15 (and my guess is that it'll rather be 16... or more?). This means there are 11 CR rounds to go.

At the moment, many monsters die with one hit or full attack. That will be over very, very soon. Furthermore, monsters will have a higher degree of versatility and will be more dangerous to the challengers - therefore we will probably refrain from posting too many rounds at once. My approximation was that the average number of updates per CR round would be 4.

So... with one update per week, it'll take 11x4= 44 weeks for the Challenge rating challenge to finish. Okay, not quite a year. :)

Hrhm... maybe BP is right and I should co-host a challenge/tourney. If there's a lot of interest (ie: a lot of work for the DM), I could assist you if you want, LT.

[Lord Twig]

I have added the rules for the Gauntlet Challenge to the first post of this thread. Check them out and let me know what you think!

[Tashalar]

Looks good so far!

I can see that you are building on the experiences from the past tournaments and challenges therefore the rules are already tried and tested. :)

One rules amendment if that actually is what you want:
No resting allowed.

12 hours would mean that one could sleep for 8 hours somewhere in-between. Hm.. that would be fine, really - but it has to be clear.

[LeadPal]

I like, I like!

I agree that there should be no resting, but it would likely be better to just cut the time to run the gauntlet in half, to six hours. Or, how about seven? Seven hours to find seven gems... appropriate, no?

[Lord Twig]

I like seven hours. I will edit the post.

[Tashalar]

Seven hours to find seven gems... that's almost... poetic!

You need to give them names though... or at least 'one' name. The Seven Gems of ...

[Lord Twig]

Yeah, that's why I liked it. The number seven came up by accident. I just randomly decided to start at level 6 then doubled it for the final encounter at 12. That made 7 encounters. It is also conveniently 1 hour less than what is needed to get back spells.

It's kind of eerie! :)

[LeadPal]

You need to give them names though... or at least 'one' name. The Seven Gems of ...The Seven Deadly Sapphires. :D

[Tashalar]

Hehe... deadly? Do we need contraptions to carry them safely then? ;)

Seriously, a hint or two of what might await the challengers would be good.

Ie:
Monsters (yeah, obvious)
Traps (obvious, number 2)
Riddles (?)
Skill use possibilities
Possible ability checks
The necessity of magic

If magic is needed for instance, then the non-magic users would not stand a chance. If you can share what you've thought of without giving too much away, I'd be curious. As always. :)

[Lord Twig]

I have updated the challenge rules to explain how hit points are done and to limit spells a little more (5th level or lower and no Planar Ally or Planar Binding).

Things you might encounter:
Monsters (all types)
Traps (of course)
Difficult environments (they are not all just empty rooms)
Hidden items (the Gems)

I will try to design the encounters so that there is more than one way to defeat them. Skills and spells won't be required, but will be a big advantage in some situations. I can't say that I will be able to come up with 7 encounters that use all of the skills, but I will try to get as many of them in there as I can.

[Tashalar]

Oh, how are you going to 'manage' the matches btw? Everyone gets a private thread? Seems like the only choice - but that's rather bad for onlookers.

[Lord Twig]

Everyone gets their own thread, but I was going to keep it public. Once everyone has finished an encounter I will move on to the next one. That way everyone starts with the same information. People will still be able to learn things from watching the other threads, but that can't be helped. I will just trust that people won't metagame. ;)

[Tashalar]

Well, I guess that's better than excluding everyone from the show - or granting a huge amount of viewing rights. :)

[LuneMoonshadow]

Participants simply shouldn't view any other participant threads. It's a break from the norm (of 2 challenges... ooh) but it'll help keep people from metagaming unintentionally. I'm sure everyone here is mature enough to pretend not to look.

[Icebird]

I appreciate the desire to keep knowledge form competitors, but I intend to participate, and I want to read up on other people's adventures as they happen. If we trust people not to look, why can't we also trust them to keep their IC and OOC knowledge separate?

[LuneMoonshadow]

Unintentional metagaming is still an issue. I do believe most people can look at other threads and exercise maturity, but for fairness it might be best to ask people not to look, just to be safe. Sometimes it's hard to make unbiased judgments after you know something about the situation you didn't know before.

Then again it's still all for fun, so unintentional metagaming really shouldn't hurt anyone's feelings. Whatever LT wants.

[Darken]

All we have to do to avoid that problem is to have a little bit of patience, and check the thread of other's progression after each encounter is completed (or failed) by all participants, since the DM is going to start the next room only when the current challenge for everyone has concluded.

On an unrelated note, these challenges are always solo challenges... the next time there's time available (for perhaps the HQ raid idea that I wanted to try to hold), we'll definitely make that a party challenge.

[Linklegacy77]

I'm actually planning on holding a team regicide competition somewhere in the future.

Two opposite castles, two kings. Each team has to kill the enemy king, while protecting their own. First team to kill the enemy king wins.

[Darken]

LT, are you still interested in running the next challenge? Since the CRC is being updated on a faster pace now, I'd like to start planning for the next challenge if you are no longer interested in running the gauntlet challenge as per proposed earlier. You still have priority, of course, just checking in since I see no activity in this thread for almost a month now.

[LeadPal]

I assume that LT is just planning behind the scenes, and activity will start up in here when the end of the CR challenge is in sight.

[Lord Twig]

I haven't done much here because it seemed that it would be a while before we would play. Now that things are moving a little faster I will speed up my preparation for this as well.

[Lord Twig]

Well, things have slowed down in the CR challenge, but I figured I would put an update here.

I have been playing around with my map making software again and was able to create the first room. It isn't high art by any stretch of the imagination, but it should get the job done. :) I hope that the other rooms will be easier as I get more practice.

The plan would be to start The Gauntlet Challenge after the current challenge ends, but we might look into other options if there is going to be a big delay before things get moving. The CR Challenge could always be put on hold for now. Or we could run The Gauntlet at the same time.

The current challenge is still Link's. So it would in large part be up to him.

[Linklegacy77]

Updates should increase dramatically once my finals are over...