Psionic Tournament Rules and Discussion

[Boomlaor]

Psionic Tournament Rules

Character Creation
All characters must be be able to manifest at least one 4th level power.
Characters will be built using the Point Buy rules and will have 32 points. Attribute adjustments due to age will be allowed, but adjustments must be made prior to taking the first class level.

Races allowed: any race or template from the allowed resources is permitted, however no character may have a total LA of +2 or higher (LA +1 is ok). The races and subraces from Unearthed Arcana (as found in the SRD) are also acceptable, however the rest of Unearthed Arcana is off limits.

Hit Points will follow the RPGA standard (max on first HD, half die size +1 for rest).
Characters will start with 67,500 Experience Points. This will allow for characters of up to ECL 12, but extensive use of Item Creation feats could reduce that level.
Equipment values will be based on the standard levels for PCs, thus you will have 88,000 gold to spend.

You may spend no more than half of your total gold on any one item.

Items will be limited to what is available in the allowed resources. You may not use the item creation rules to make unique items.
Items or abilities that cast or mimic spells above sixth level are not permitted.
One-use items will be limited to no more than 5000gp in total value. This includes items with expendible charges (i.e. this does not include items with x uses/day or week).

Charged items must be purchased fully charged (wands, staves, etc.)
Item creation feats may be used to save money, but XP must be spent and may effectively lower your level. You must be of the correct level or higher to create an item.
You may create or purchase custom wands, staves, potions, etc. Wondrous items, magic armor and magic weapons are limited to those listed in the available resources.

If your character requires a spellbook you get free spells added to your book as given for your class. Any additional spells must be scribed into the book at the cost of 100gps per page/level. This is the only cost for additional spells.

Allowed resources: SRD, Player’s Handbook, Dungeon Master’s Guide, Monster Manual, Complete: Adventurer, Complete: Arcane, Complete: Divine, Complete: Warrior, Complete: Psionic Expanded Psionic Handbook. Note: The current Errata and FAQ will be used.
This is supposed to be fun. With that in mind anyone may object to a character that seems unbalanced before the battles start. I will review the character and will have final say on which characters may join the contest.
If you wish you may provide a picture of your character to be used in the duels. They should be 40x40 in size. If not I will try to reduce them to fit, but I make no guarantees.Game Rules
The Rules as Written will be followed as closely as possible. In the case of an unclear rule I will make a judgment as best I can. You may contest any ruling once. I will review the arguments and make a final judgment. Final judgments are just that, final.
You may use the ORP.com dice roller function if you would like to roll your own dice. If you do not, or if other rolls are needed, I will roll them myself, and either way I will determine and post the results of all actions.
Each player will have 24 hours to post their move when it is their turn. Weekends will not count toward the 24 hour limit, but duels may still be updated during that time. If you fail to post in 24 hours you will be assumed to take a total defense action and the next player’s turn will start.
Each player will be allowed to enter up to two contestants. Each contestant should be significantly different in some way.

Psionic/Magic transparency is in full effect. Note that this does not change the requirement that all characters must be able to manifest at least one 4th level power.
Psionic Tournament Rules
To gain entry into the Psionic Tournament, each combatant must manifest a power of at least 4th level.
The Psionic Tournament will be a round robin competition. All characters are slaves owned by mindflayers, and the losers of the round robin will be consumed by the owner of the winning combatant.

A defeat is a defeat, whether caused by death or debilitation.
Any characters killed will be raised. If killed, d% will be rolled and upon a roll of 1-75, the character's owner will pay for a resurrection. Upon a roll of 76-100, the character's owner will purchase a True Resurrection.

Combatants may not have any active effects at the commencement of a fight, although weapons with an enchantment which causes extra dice of damage may be active or not at the beginning of a fight at the combatant's option.
In the case of odd competitors, a bye will be awarded to advance one to the next round. No Player may receive more than one bye unless all remaining players have had one. A bye does not count as a loss, but it also does not count as a win.
If both combatants are knocked unconscious simultaneously it will be a draw, and the battle will be re-fought the next day. In the case of simultaneous death, both combatants lose, and will be consumed by each other's owners.

Every combatant will fight each day unless they have a bye.
Duelists and their familiars or animal companions or special mounts will be fully healed after each match. Between fights they will have time to rest and prepare new spells.
Familiars, animal companions, and special mounts will be allowed, however the leadership feat will not.
The arena will be a 100’ diameter circle and the combatants will start at opposite sides. The ground within the arena will be sand. Familiars will start in the same square as their master or in an adjacent square. The arena is surrounded by stands for spectators. You may travel up to 10' underground or up to 200' into the air.

If a combatant is forced out of the arena or to another plane, combat will be paused and the other combatant will be required to remain in place until the displaced combatant can be returned.

Victory is achieved by disabling or killing your opponent, although disabling or forcing a yield is prefered, as your master gets to snack on the brains of your defeated opponents and dead brains don't taste good. The ultimate victor of the tournament will be granted his or her life and freedom.
The competitors are permitted to watch other fights, so each knows about abilities that have been previously used in this tournament. Obviously, with the loser of each fight being killed or eaten, they have never faced each other before.Signups will begin on or about December 31, 2007, and will close on or about January 11, 2008.
I will answer questions about the rules in this thread and will update this post with clarifications and new rules.

[Tashalar]

Oooooooooh... awesome! It's Christmas eve in Germany, so I'll be taking a closer look at this over the course of the next days. :)

[Lord Twig]

Oooooooooh... awesome! It's Christmas eve in Germany, so I'll be taking a closer look at this over the course of the next days. :)

What a coincidence! It's Christmas Eve here in the States as well. :roll:

I didn't see the Expanded Psionics Handbook listed in the allowed resources. Is it supposed to be?

[Tashalar]

What a coincidence! It's Christmas Eve here in the States as well.
Ah, but you are lying! Christmas eve is on the 25th in the states. It's on the 24th in Germany.

... or did I get something terribly wrong? :x-eyed:

I didn't see the Expanded Psionics Handbook listed in the allowed resources. Is it supposed to be?
It's on the SRD and the SRD is allowed, so.... I guess, yeah.

[Tashalar]

What about psionic/magic transparency (or whatever it's called)?

Leadership is disallowed - what about the thrallherd ability?

What will the arena be like?

:)

[Boomlaor]

-Magic/psionic transparency is in full effect, through all characters must still be able to manifest at least a 4th lvl power.

-Thrallherd, likewise, needs to be disallowed. These characters are slaves themselves, they don't have followers (plus, in a 1 on 1 tournament, it's just no good)

-The arena I had envisioned as similar to a gladitorial arena, 100 foot diameter circle, sand floor, surrounded by stands for spectators and bettors. This is open to suggestions, however.

-Allowable races will include all those with a LA of +1 or less

[Linklegacy77]

Are templates permitted?

I will be participating.

[Tashalar]

Are templates permitted?
If yes, are they limited to LA+1 as well?

Items will be limited to what is available in the allowed resources. You may not use the item creation rules to make unique items.Does this imply the same ruling on items that goes for the CR Challenge (where is your character btw, Boom? :roll: )

Items or abilities that cast or mimic spells above 5th level are not permitted.Just as a clarification - this does not include items where you need a spell of above 5th level to craft it but which is not actually cast with said item?

One-use items will be limited to no more than 5000gp in total value.But they cost as normal (not 2x or 5x the standard cost)?
Furthermore, will they be replenished between matches or will they be gone (I'm 99% sure what the answer will be though ;) )?

Any additional spells must be scribed into the book at the cost of 100gps per page/level.This implies the character has a mentor from whom he gets access to scribe those spells for free, correct? The only cost to learn spell is 100 gp / level?

This is supposed to be fun.Uh... huh? I don't get it... care to elaborate? :roll:

Allowed resources: Anything that is in the Expanded Psionics handbook but is not on the SRD is disallowed, correct (no idea if something is missing though)?
What about all the other stuff on the SRD - Unearthed Arcana, anyone?

Combatants may not have any active effects at the commencement of a fight, although weapons with an enchantment which causes extra dice of damage may be active or not at the beginning of a fight at the combatant's option.No active anything except what you mentioned - good. But how does the duel actually commence? The opponents stand in their predetermined squares, approximately 100' across, and initiative is rolled? Everything goes from round one?
What if a competitor is forced out of the arena or to another plane?

Btw - what do competitors know of other competitors? Do they know what they can do (approximately) and what not like in the gladiatorial tournament? Or don't they know anything at all?

Oh, and I'll be participating. Spikey was my first psionic character ever - so I can use this to find out more about psionics. ECL 12 will yield some crazy builds, I'm sure - but learning by dying and then watching works fine for me as well. :)

[Boomlaor]

-I'll allow templates of LA +1 or less. Total LA for the character must be +1 or less, however, so if you have a racial LA you can't have a template with a LA.

-Item creation clarification: custom wands, potions, or staves are ok. Wondrous items, weapons, and armor are limited to the options in the available resources. This all presumes, of course, the appropriate item creation feats.

-Minor change here. Items or abilities which cast or mimic spells or powers of 6th level or higher are prohibited. A straight Psion 12 can manifest up to 6th lvl powers. I don't want items to be able to be more powerful than that.

-Correct, single use items cost as normal, but the total of single use items (includes wands, staves, etc) may not exceed 5,000 gp and expended items shall not be replaced.

-Tashalar's assumption about the costs of spells is correct. You do not need to pay anything for spells beyond the cost to scribe them.

-I don't have a copy of XPH, so that's why I didn't list it. Unless I can get a copy of it somehow, I'll have to allow any of it that is in the SRD, since I do have access to that, and dissallow anything from the XPH not in the SRD (if there is anything).

-I'll allow the use of the races and subraces from Unearthed Arcana as found in the SRD. As the focus of this is a psionic tournament, I'll dissallow the rest of it.

-Each fight will commence with the combatants on opposite ends of the arena. Their mindflayer masters will keep them in check untill the judges give a signal, at which time the combatants are released and initiative is rolled. Surprise rounds are possible. Everything goes.

-If a combatant is forced out of the arena or to another plane, combat will be paused and the other combatant will be required to remain in place until the displaced combatant can be returned. Victory is achieved by disabling or killing your opponent, although disabling or forcing a yield is prefered, as your master gets to snack on the brains of your defeated opponents and dead brains don't taste good. The ultimate victor of the tournament will be granted his or her life and freedom.

-The competitors are permitted to watch other fights, so each knows about abilities that have been previously used in this tournament. Obviously, with the loser of each fight being killed or eaten, they have never faced each other before.

[Tashalar]

-Correct, single use items cost as normal, but the total of single use items (includes wands, staves, etc) may not exceed 5,000 gp and expended items shall not be replaced.
Um.. are you sure you want to include staves and wands (and dorjes and... whatever) as single-use items? I'm fine with it but a 5k gp limit is effectively a ban for staves...

Each fight will commence with the combatants on opposite ends of the arena. Their mindflayer masters will keep them in check untill the judges give a signal, at which time the combatants are released and initiative is rolled. Surprise rounds are possible. Everything goes.
Are you sure? If we roll initiative, then surprise rounds are already out, are the not?

The ultimate victor of the tournament will be granted his or her life and freedom.

Finally a goal that is worth fighting for! :roll:

The competitors are permitted to watch other fights, so each knows about abilities that have been previously used in this tournament. Obviously, with the loser of each fight being killed or eaten, they have never faced each other before.
Okay, this makes sense. It might make it hard not to metagame though. I can PM you an example if you'd like. :)

[Boomlaor]

-Yes, anything with charges that don't replenish (i.e. x per day, etc) is a single use item. This may ban staves, but I'd like this to be a character building tournament rather than a gear focused tournament.

-You're right about surprise rounds. I meant that it would be possible to find an opponent flat-footed in the first round.

-You can PM or post the example, and I'll consider changing the rule, but for now, we'll have to deal with the possibility of metagaming.

[SlagMortar]

I'd like to unofficially reserve a character concept:
Great Aunt Lilith who belittles you with such demeaning insults that you just give up on life.

She'll be a wilder focusing on ego whip.

[Tashalar]

Sounds awesome, Slag. Simple, but efficient.

This may ban staves, but I'd like this to be a character building tournament rather than a gear focused tournament.You might want to reduce the amount of gold in that case...

I'll send you an example. :)

Btw - is there a cap on PPs that an elan can spend to evade damage? With only a single fight a day, this can be a significant benefit.

[Tashalar]

http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicItems.html
Down at the bottom there are some special materials including deep crystal.

This sounds like a cheap and effective way to win. Easily. Simply channel tons of PPs through the weapon and... win. Am I missing something about this deep crystal or is it as awesome (and cheap) as it seems to be?

But... how many PPs can one invest in one round concerning this free-action-damage move? Maximum up to the manifest level?
Does the same count for the 'negate damage ability' of the elan?
Or are they both limitless? :?

[SlagMortar]

While a weapon made of deep crystal is no different from a mundane crystal weapon for a nonpsionic character, a psionic wielder of a deep crystal weapon can focus psionic power through it, increasing the damage that weapon deals. As a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, the wielder can channel psionic power into a melee weapon or ranged weapon made of deep crystal. For 2 power points, the deep crystal weapon deals an extra 2d6 points of damage. The weapon will stay charged for 1 minute or until it scores its next hit. Bows, crossbows, and slings bestow this power on their ammunition. All missile weapons lose this effect if they miss. However, they may be recovered and charged again.

I think that means the weapon has two states: charged and not charged. Charging it costs a free action and two PP. If it hits while charged, it deals an extra 2d6 damage. It can't be charged arbitrarily high.

[Boomlaor]

As I read the deep crystal entry, it allows only to spend 2 pp on it for an increase of 2d6. Still pretty nice, but not scalable.

I believe that the Elan ability is limited only by your pool of pp, but it's a once per round thing as an immediate action.

[Lord Twig]

Since we don't have a sign-up thread yet and Slag is reserving character concepts I will reserve my own.

I am making a Elan Rogue/Psion/Shadowmind. Should be fun. :)

[Tashalar]

Ah, I see. I knew I must've been missing something. :)

Oh, and I'll add some kind of lurk to the fray. Yay. :roll:

Edit: Hm... but if you have two deep crystal weapons and greater two-weapon fighting and haste - can one attack five times and recharge both weapons each time after the attack as a free action? I looked at the description of deep crystal and saw nothing which contradicts this...

[Linklegacy77]

Hmmm....

I might play a Lurk, just for kicks.

Or more likely, an Shaper.

[Lord Twig]

I really don't see the deep crystal as being over-powering. Compared to some of the 6th level powers it isn't that deadly.

[Linklegacy77]

Actually, the great thing about psionic powers vs. spells is scalability. The more power you put into it, the more power you get out. Thus, most power as a manifester comes from raising the maximum amount of power you can put into something. However, the deep crystal comes with an inherent 2 power point limitation, which greatly limits it.

I might even consider allowing a variant that costs a lot more money for my games. It would function so that you can spend 1 power point for 1d6 bonus damage, and have the scale be equal to your manifester level (I.E. maximum points you can spend is your manifester level).

It's good for burst damage, but not for long drawn out fights.

I also take it that soulknife focused builds are out of the question due to the 4th level power requirement.

*sigh* no thri-kreen soulknife/soulbows for me.

[Boomlaor]

Good news, I've come accross the XPH, so it is now an allowable resource.

[Lord Twig]

You might want to reduce the amount of gold in that case...

66,000gp really isn't that much. The only unbalancing thing about equipment is when you use one-use items out of proportion to their intended use.

[Tashalar]

66,000gp really isn't that much. The only unbalancing thing about equipment is when you use one-use items out of proportion to their intended use.
Agreed. There are still quite a few neat items with 1/day or 3/day uses that work nicely though. But... there's not really a reason why not to use those, eh?

Actually, the great thing about psionic powers vs. spells is scalability. The more power you put into it, the more power you get out. Thus, most power as a manifester comes from raising the maximum amount of power you can put into something. However, the deep crystal comes with an inherent 2 power point limitation, which greatly limits it.
You are right - and that counts the most (if I get this correctly) for psionic classes who do not get a new power level every other class level (lurk, psychic warrior, etc...).
For a psion, augmenting a power is similar to using the feat heighten spell quite often (when 2 PPs = +1 to DC as is the case for quite a few powers) while there's a proportionately larger gain for the above-mentioned classes by augmenting powers. Sure, they have less PPs, but that really is no issue in this contest. I'm gonna eat my hat if someone runs out of PPs. Except if it's an elan who can use tons of PPs to avoid damage.

The deep crystal is limited, agreed. But it costs... uh... nothing. Neither in gold, nor to use it (free action) - so why would someone not take it? An extra 2d6 damage sounds nifty. And I could see my lurk taking greater two weapon fighting and expanded knowledge for psionic lion's charge and attack 5 times wiht an extra 2d6 damage on each hit. And an extra 3d6 from psionic sneak attack. With the immense bonus to initiative, who's going to prevent this?
Unless... wait... you cannot take other actions in-between actions, right? So... one could only use two free actions to charge both weapons once, then charge and full attack? That would make much more sense in any case. :)

[Lord Twig]

Not sure if you could do it in the middle of a full attack. Even if you could that would be 10 PPs, which is almost as much as a 6th level power, plus the cost of the Psionic Lion's Charge. Instead you could have just manifested Psionic Disintegrate and done 22d6 damage if they failed their save.

[Linklegacy77]

You cannot use it mid-attack, since you cannot take an action during another action, unless you have some special ability to do so (spring attack, etc.)

You might not take it because it isn't particularly useful unless you plan on using it a lot. 2 power points for 2d6 damage is nice, but you might not use it if you don't have a lot of points. For example, I played a Lurk once. I was a very good combatant, but I ran out of power points after 4 to 5 rounds of combat. I wouldn't have used deep crystal.

It's all about scalability.

[Lord Twig]

Just looked up money and the standard wealth for a 12th level character is 88,000gp. Is that the amount we are using?

Note that this is 12 thousand less than the latest tournament and equipment certainly was not a deciding factor in that game.

[LeadPal]

I want to play! But... no! Must... start... own... campaign...

Curse priorities!

[Boomlaor]

I don't have my DMG here LT, but I have the excel chart I made. 88,000 is the 12th entry on the chart because there is no entry for 1st lvl. However, iirc, the lvl 12 wealth is 66,000.

[Linklegacy77]

Boom, there is no 1st level entry on the chart because that is determined by class.

The 88,000 gold for 12th level is correct.

I have decided, I will be playing a Lurk.

Is there a restriction on the number of characters we can play?

[Tashalar]

Each player will be allowed to enter up to two contestants. Each contestant should be significantly different in some way.

I have decided, I will be playing a Lurk.

Oh, and I'll add some kind of lurk to the fray. Yay.
Then there are two lurks, Link. Even though that is no problem at all, we should try to keep them at least a little different.

Mine will be a synad or grey elf, probably going with the dire stun feat to kill opposition fast. One charge across the battle field, one strike with the augments stunning attack and mental assault or another suitable augment and the match should already be over.
(This might be reason enough to change the terrain to difficult terrain so that lurks don't auto-win - their initiative mod is so high, they cannot really lose initiative, Boom.)

What about yours? :D

On wealth:
The table in the DMG on Character Wealth by Level shows the aforementioned 88k gold for a level 12 character.
NPC gear value that BP used for the gladiator contest is 27k gold for a level 12 character.

Go with one... or the other. Or just keep it at 66k - I don't really care. :)

[Linklegacy77]

Tash... having your int to initiative doesn't guarentee that you'll win initiative.

Trust me, your style is useful, but there are many situations where it won't win you the match.

I have my own plans.

My other character will be a shaper.

[Tashalar]

Tash... having your int to initiative doesn't guarentee that you'll win initiative.Perfectly true. But an initiative modifier of +18 should work most of the time. :)

Trust me, your style is useful, but there are many situations where it won't win you the match.Once more - agreed. But the lurk still has his powers... those aren't really needed so far in the above-mentioned winning move.

My other character will be a shaper.Is a shaper one of those metamorphosis guys?

[Linklegacy77]

+18 huh?

Still not a guarentee, just highly likely. Say your enemy has a +4 only...

You'll win 70% of the time.

And I've got a lurk too. Care to guess which of ours will win in a one vs. one?

Metacreation ftw.

[Tashalar]

+18 huh?
Well, that's the grey elf version with improved ini, 22 Dex and 26 Int. ;)

Say your enemy has a +4 only...
You'll win 70% of the time.
+4 vs. +18 => 70%?
My calculation shows 96,75%.

+12 vs. +18 is still a 77,25% chance...

And I've got a lurk too. Care to guess which of ours will win in a one vs. one?

Metacreation ftw
Oh, I'm sure your lurk will win in a one-on-one vs. mine. You're psionic-experienced while I'm just a noob. Beginner's luck ftw though! :)

Metacreation though? Whassat? Creating a lurk to kill a lurk?

[Lord Twig]

+4 vs. +18 => 70%?
My calculation shows 96,75%.

+12 vs. +18 is still a 77,25% chance...


What formula do you use to figure that out? I have been wondering how to figure out percentage chances on opposed rolls. :P

[Tashalar]

Sorry to be getting back to you so late, LT. Being sick and nothing happening here had me only now have a look here again.

Formula... hrhm... actually I did it once the hard way. There are 400 (20x20) possible combination of rolls in an opposed check. Um... let's take an example... Rakesh tries to trip Spikey.
+16 vs. +5 - a difference of 11.

If Rakesh rolls a '1', Spikey only succeeds on a '13' - therefore I add 8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1 (which are the possible winning combinations for Spikey) and divide that by 400 for a result of 9% failure chance. I might get this rounded up into a simple formula, but my head is still not quite alright.



Other than that... I'll get at least one contestant up until the dead line - but we do need some more, don't we? Slag, LT, Link and myself so far are the only ones. Shall I advertise over at Dragonavenue as well?

[SlagMortar]

What formula do you use to figure that out? I have been wondering how to figure out percentage chances on opposed rolls. http://www.online-roleplaying.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley%20-%20cheerful.gif
The closed form is:
Chance to win opposed roll = 21/40+39/800*B-(B^2)/800

B is the difference in bonuses, and this assumes a tie always goes to one player, so it does not work for values of B <= 0. For example, the formula gives 52.5% for B=0, because it assumes that one player wins a tie.

With Tash's Rakesh vs Spikey example:
16 - 5 = 11
21/40+39/800*(11)-(11^2)/800 = 0.525 + 0.53625 - 0.15125 = 0.91 = 91% = same as Tash's answer.

[Tashalar]

Somehow I knew you would jump in and present a 'real' formula, Slag. :)

[Lord Twig]

So that means that Yarden had a 34% chance to resist the trip (Rakesh +16 vs. Yarden +12), yet he failed every time. Talk about crummy luck! :(

[SlagMortar]

So that means that Yarden had a 34% chance to resist the trip (Rakesh +16 vs. Yarden +12), yet he failed every time. Talk about crummy luck!
Yeah, I was very suprised by Rakesh's opposed roll success against Yarden. I knew it was a solid strategy, but all those 19's on the trip checks sure helped it out. Too bad Rakesh used up all his luck before fighting Spikey.

[Lord Twig]

I have been working on my first character. It is taking a long time since I have to look up every power to see what they do. I should have something posted by the end of the day.

The Shadowmind is an interesting concept, but in practice I'm not sure it is the best choice for a gladiator. Oh well, it will give you guys someone to practice on. :)

Might make a second character as well. Again, more target practice for the rest of you. ;)

[Linklegacy77]

Do you have a deadline?

And Lord Twig? I was actually considering using Shadowmind for my character.

[Tashalar]

Where is shadow mind from? Why haven't I stumbled over it?! :?

[Linklegacy77]

Cv

[Boomlaor]

I have posted a Jan 16 deadline. If, however, there are one or more entrants who are close but not quite there at that time, then I may extend that deadline.

[Lord Twig]

Posted my character, but not quite done yet. Still have more money to spend.

Feel free to laugh quitely behind your hand. ;)

Edit: Oh, also need to put it in the proper format as well.

[Boomlaor]

Huzzah! A player!! :)

[Linklegacy77]

I'll have at least one of my characters up soon.

[Tashalar]

I've never so far failed to get a character up when I said I would, Boom! :)

[Tashalar]

And I have... even though I won't make another. I'm just not in the mood currently and I failed to discover some concept which stands a chance while being fun.

I really get the feeling that whoever goes first will likely win. Slag's Ego Whip will win the day against most contestants, LT's cloud mind or another power will as well - and I'm sure Link's characters will all have For/Will powers which will just smother our characters (as none of them will have both good For and Will saves). If my character goes first and manages to stun the opponent, then game's more or less over as well, I'd say.

Hrhm... it's too... I don't know. :?

Btw - my second character was going to be a cerebremancer. Maybe I'll still do it if my motivation picks up again - I don't think this tournament will need as much work as the gladiator one as it will be over rather quickly. ;)

[Lord Twig]

Is Lurk from Complete: Psionic? I don't have that book.

There will definitely be some "save or die" situations going on, but I don't know that I will be one of them. Cloud Mind is cool, but I couldn't find any good way of really increasing the save DC.

My Shadowmind does have a pretty good Initiative and has balanced defensive and offensive capabilities, which would be great in a normal campaign, but in this case I see myself losing to someone that focused on one thing and enhanced that one thing to ridiculous levels. However, there is still a chance, usually those characters work great until someone gets a lucky save, then they have nothing else they can do and go down quick.

[SlagMortar]

Well, I posted Lilith. I can't decide whether to keep the focus on Dex or to just concede initiative and focus on Cha.

Now I need to start writing some insults. You know, just in case I'm not killed in the first match before getting an action. Ego Whip just isn't as cool if it doesn't come with some good, demoralizing insults.

[Tashalar]

Is Lurk from Complete: Psionic? I don't have that book.
Yeah, it is. :)

Ego Whip just isn't as cool if it doesn't come with some good, demoralizing insults.
Yay for insults!!

As to Ini vs. Cha... no idea, really. In the current setup you forget some bonus for the psicrystal affinity though. I don't think you stand much of a chance at winning Ini vs. the lurks in the first place - but you might do nicely vs. the other non-lurks, so... hrhm. *shrug*

[Tashalar]

I have to travel for the upcoming three days (work) and don't know whether or not I'll have internet access. Will try to finish my character in-between some time.

[Lord Twig]

Finished with my character.

So far only 3 participants, all with a high Initiative modifier. This could be a quick tournament.;)

[Tashalar]

I'm back. Did not have online access at all for three days - which is something entirely rare for me. :P

Link is still going to enter his characters I guess? Then we'd have five.

[Boomlaor]

I hope so, although I haven't heard from him. If it is just you 3, would you prefer to do a round robin tournament instead of standard single elimination?

[Linklegacy77]

I will have them in on time.

[Tashalar]

Even with 5 characters we could make it double elimination, really. Maybe not round robin though. I'm open for everything. :)

[SlagMortar]

I'd love to play any matches Boomlaor wants to run. I don't think any of the matches are going to last for very long.

[Linklegacy77]

Combatants may not have any active effects at the commencement of a fight, although weapons with an enchantment which causes extra dice of damage may be active or not at the beginning of a fight at the combatant's option.

Does this apply to other magical items? Say I was wearing a belt of giant strength. That's an active effect, do I have to put that on after I enter the battle?

If it's an item with a time limit (long time limit, say, 130 rounds), could I have put that on before entering the battle?

[Tashalar]

Boom has the final say, obviously - here's my take:

Flaming, frost, shocking, animated and all such abilities are active and do not have to be turned on.
A belt of giant strength never has to be turned on - which means that it is active.

An item which grants an ability for a certain number of rounds (no matter if 10 or 1000) does have to be turned on. If they do not have to be activated, then all and everything should be allowed as active. And if that were the case, then LT, Slag and I would probably also find a few nifty items with nice effects to have with all the money we can spend.

Uh... yeah.

[Linklegacy77]

What if the method of activating the item is to wear it?

[Tashalar]

Well, I'd say that items which have to be activated - even if they use-activated - should be off at the beginning of the match. Otherwise that would open a whole lot of possibilities (I guess) - just thinking of skins here.

There really would be no reason not to put something on just one round before the match in that case - and we don't have preparation rounds. If an item effect lasts a whole day that might be another thing though. One could easily argue that one activates it each day - and such an effect would also not be very powerful.

Just my 2,5 coppers. ;)

[Linklegacy77]

Well, I'm just considering that the example he has up suggests that it's okay to have magical item effects in place before a match, so I'm attempting to figure out the limits.

But the skins are a good example.

It takes a standard action to put on the skin, but once it is on, it is in effect. Like any other magical item, you put it on, and it gives you the bonus. But what if you had an item, like the skin, that only gave you the bonus for a limited amount of time each day? You still wear the item to receive the bonus, so it should function the same as the other magical items that you wear, like bracers of armor. You put them on, you get the bonus, until time wears out. Would the rules prohibit you from putting on your gear right before entering the arena?

[Tashalar]

Hm... I'm not sure I get what kind of item you mean, Link.

Take the boots of speed for example - you need to wear them for them to function, obviously. Then it's a free action to activate them. But that doesn't really help the case, hm?

For consistency's sake I'd say that it should not work as that could open a can of worms, really. On the other hand I am unsure as to what items there are that do exactly what you describe. If you want to keep it secret, I'd say just PM it to Boom and let him decide. If he clarifies a ruling or makes a new ruling, he can still inform the rest of us about it afterwards.

[Linklegacy77]

Okay, I'll make an item up.

Let's say we have an item that gives a +1 bonus on attack rolls. You have the bonus as long as you wear it, but the effect stops after you've been wearing it for 1 minute. The item can only be activated once a day.

Well, would you be allowed to put this on before the battle started as part of your gear, or would you have to spend an action during the fight to put it on?

What if the items duration is such that there is no way the match could possibly be expected to last that length? (like 100 rounds)

[Tashalar]

Hrhm... yeah, I get your point. I'd still be against allowing it as you would actually 'do something' before the match which would effectively influence the match - even if it's only putting something on.

I'd be willing to accept a different ruling though.

[Linklegacy77]

It doesn't really matter, because the item I was considering is illegal for another reason: it mimics an 8th level power.

Look up the shroud of oblivion, and tell me it wouldn't have won you the tournament.

[Tashalar]

Where can it be found? It does 'sound' evul already though... ;)

[Linklegacy77]

Complete Psionic. Basically, for 130 rounds, you gain the benefit of the stygian veil power, also found in the complete psionic.

[Tashalar]

Yes, that would most likely have won you the match. Only a psion with disintegrate would have been dangerous for a character with the shroud.

[Boomlaor]

You could not have that item active before the battle started.

"To activate a shroud it must be pulled over the head of a psionic creature and 4 power points must be expended, all as a standard action."

Taking this action (spending PPs as you don the item) creates an effect. Merely wearing it is not enough, therefore it is different from a belt of giant strength. Any item which requires more than merely wearing it to activate an effect may not be active beforehand, with the exception of the weapons with extra dice of damage as previously named.

[Linklegacy77]

Again, not that it matters, as it's an illegal item.

But assuming I won initiative (not that hard, as I've come up with a few methods to beat Tashalar's 18), it would have been an almost guarenteed victory, as it defeats pretty much everybody elses methods to win.

Anyway, I'm working on my first entry. How do you like my concept for a paladin lurk?

[SlagMortar]

Complete Psionic. Basically, for 130 rounds, you gain the benefit of the stygian veil power, also found in the complete psionic.

Yes, that would most likely have won you the match. Only a psion with disintegrate would have been dangerous for a character with the shroud.

I would think a targeted dispel psionics - either on the effect or on the shroud itself - would remove the benefit at least for 1d4 rounds. Obviously it would still be a big advantage, though.

Edit: Oh, and I'll try to get my psycrystal finished here soon. I forgot I hadn't done that yet.

[SlagMortar]

Hmm. I just got a new idea, or actually, realized a way to implement an old idea that I had already thrown out. When are you planning on starting, Boom? If it is after the weekend, I can probably get up another character, though if we would rather go with a tournament of 4 characters, that's cool too. I might build it anyway to see how it would have done.

[Boomlaor]

Was planning to start matches around next Wednesday. If you can get it up by Monday evening I'll allow it. I think link was planning 1 more character, and then we'd have even numbers. Either way, I'm running this tournament to try to learn more about psionics, so the more the merrier as far as I'm concerned.

[Linklegacy77]

My Lurk is ready to compete, and he should be very dangerous.

[Tashalar]

I think my character is more or less ready now. Ready to be looked over that is. :)

Edit: Just had a look at your lurk, Link. That ability focus (lurk augment) is rather nifty. I'm not going to take it since I did not think of it myself (even though I could easily drop weapon finesse or lurk, ranged as feats). Let's get this started. ;)

[SlagMortar]

Alright, my second character is up. It didn't work out quite as well as I had hoped due mostly to some nasty multi-attribute dependency. I really needed psionic meditation and the 13 Wis pre-req was annoying. Oh well, we'll see how Timmy does. He will certainly take Lilith apart at the seems if the two should fight.

[Linklegacy77]

Both of my characters are complete. I anticipate that they will both be very strong competitors.

[Tashalar]

One... more... day. *drum roll*

I guess we can wait a little longer if you need some time to check the characters though, Boom. :)

[Boomlaor]

I should be checking them tonight after work and, assuming no major changes need to be made, will try to post up some fights tommorow night.

[Tashalar]

Even though the pairings should be random, I'm in favor of not letting Slag's and Link's characters fight each other in the first match - it's simply bothersome and less fun I guess.

Have you decided on what style of tournament we'll do? Maybe double elimination in favor of single (which is too quick/short) or round robin (which might take too long)?

On the other hand... round robin would mean there are 15 matches to play out. Maybe a final one if there's a tie in the end. Considering that the matches might take not much time at all, this might be a possibility.

My bet is that at least half the matches won't get to round 4. ;)

[Linklegacy77]

Hey Tashalar, which of my characters would you prefer to fight and why?

[Tashalar]

I must admit that all my attention has been focussed on the CR Challenge so far and I only took a good look at your lurk. I'd guess that if my lurk wins initiative and your lurk fails his save, my lurk wins - but otherwise bets are on yours. Odds in favor of yours as well I guess.

As I said, I still have to take a good look at your other character - maybe I'll do that tomorrow unless I get to face him. Might be interesting when I don't know much about him. Might also be fatal in any case. We'll see. :)

[Boomlaor]

Still going through characters, sorry guys, I won't get matches posted tonight. I'll do my best to finish up and get them up tomorrow. I'm leaning toward doing a round robin since we only have 6, a double elimination would be a nightmare of byes and such.

[Tashalar]

Okay, round robin it is... so I can expect my character to last for at least 5 matches!! :roll:

[Boomlaor]

Right, so mapping software has just leveled to about at least lvl 17 by kicking my ass. The arena will now be a 100' square instead of a 100' circle, hope that doesn't throw anyone off too bad. First matches to be posted shortly.

Edit: Son of a....

The arena will now be a 105' square since that's what I drew and didn't realize it 'till I labeled it and don't feel like wrestling with the computer any more.

Edit 2: I realized that a rule change is needed because of the change in format. Since this is a round robin, deaths will need to be dealt with. The losing combatant in each fight, if killed, will be raised by clerics. The spell used to do so will be determined by d% roll. 1-75 will result in Resurection, 76-100 will result in your owner spending the big bucks for True Resurection.

[Tashalar]

Lol.... "Mapping softwar... TEN! ... Boomlaor... ZEROOOOO!"

Thanks for putting in the effort and actually managing to start this before the weekend, Boom! :)

And... yay, Jéjé won initiative (surprise, surprise...)... let's see if he manages to stun Varla.

Edit: Just had a good look at Jéjé again - if he rolls a 'natural one' on his attack, he'll use his luck sword to reroll the attack.

Edit2: AC for the round actually is 21 due to the haste effect. If Varla makes her save and uses a psionic power on Jéjé, please do not roll his save immediately but instead roll if he recognizes the power first and tell me. That way I can decide whether he'd use the power of the luck blade and under which circumstances.

Edit3: Whups, rolled one d6 too much for damage. Deal with it as you see fit, Mr. Boom-DM!

[Lord Twig]

Since Varla is flat-footed I assume she can not use even immediate powers? How about her racial abilities? +4 to saves would probably be handy.

[Tashalar]

Nope, nothing IIRC...

I think you already have a vest of resistance +3? Or was that another character...

In any case... elan resistance is an immediate action as well IIRC - so that's a no-no as well.

*********

Maybe that's the first thing we're learning from this tournament - that the opponents should not start out flat-footed.

[Lord Twig]

Yes, it is an immediate action. 1 PP for +4 racial bonus to saves for 1 round. Should stack with just about anything. Would have been really nice if I could use it. ;)

[Lord Twig]

Heh, looks like Jéjé might be in trouble. :)

[Tashalar]

Woah - you're right! It is a racial bonus... I thought it was a resistance bonus - that is rather nifty!

Eliminating the flat-footed status would make winning initiative less decisive and might prolong fights... I'd be in favor of it - generally speaking. On the other hand my lurk was built with exactly this in mind - win initiative and then do evul stuff to people who cannot react in any way due to being flatfooted.

Edit: Oh, you lucky one, you!

[Tashalar]

Oh, LT - you can post whatever psionic power you'll use if you use one... just checked and Jéjé's psicraft score is high enough to figure out what Varla is doing in any case.

On the reroll... now that it's getting important... it's difficult not to metagame here. Stupid thing is that a reroll is entirely OOC in the first place.

Just off the top of my head (am about to leave):
How about we figure out the exact roll Jéjé would need to save against whatever comes his way. Then I (or whoever) rolls a d6 with the following results...
1: 3 below the optimal reroll choice
2: 2 below the optimal reroll choice
3: 1 ...
4: 1 above
5: 2 above
6: 3 above...

As I said... that's off the top of my head. Thoughts?

[Boomlaor]

Maybe I'm missing something. I don't think that Jeje can reach I-2 though. A hasted charge gives him a move of 90', which gets him to I-3, 10' away from Varla, doesn't it?

[Tashalar]

Nope, haste means +30 movement => 60 feet. A charge is a full-round action where you make a double move and then attack.

That was his plan all along - win initiative, charge, stun (or use mental assault or something else) to win the day.

[Boomlaor]

I always get confused with how things stack. Doubling twice = trippling, and all that. Carry on.

[Tashalar]

:)

Well, you could go ahead and get the post up-to-date - on the other hand as long as there is nothing else you think is wrong, we can just wait for LT's next action.

Yay, 100th post in the discussion thread! :P

Edit: Despite my earlier proclamation my damage roll is actually correct - I simply forgot to list the extra d6 sneak attack damage from the augment.

LT - where did you get some of your character's powers? I was looking them over to figure out what you'd do to poor Jéjé now and could not find Second Chance or Fate Link for example.

[Tashalar]

Interesting... rather low rolls on those ego whips, Slag, but if James misses the first save, then he's out (not that it's very likely). If he misses any save, James is dazed and it's Lilith's turn. Not sure how much she can do on her turn, but I guess a normal, augmented ego whip might work then.

I'm getting the feeling that this tournament will teach me a lot about psionics and combat.

[SlagMortar]

Interesting... rather low rolls on those ego whips, Slag, but if James misses the first save, then he's out (not that it's very likely). If he misses any save, James is dazed and it's Lilith's turn. Not sure how much she can do on her turn, but I guess a normal, augmented ego whip might work then.
Yep, the rolls are none too great, but after winning initiative, I certainly can't complain.
I'm getting the feeling that this tournament will teach me a lot about psionics and combat.
Hear, hear! I knew very little before this tournament. Making characters taught me some and I'm sure dieing will teach me some more.

[SlagMortar]

Tashalar pointed out I have screwed up Timmy's saves - specifically the hexblade contribution. I will correct the sheet.

[Lord Twig]

LT - where did you get some of your character's powers? I was looking them over to figure out what you'd do to poor Jéjé now and could not find Second Chance or Fate Link for example.

Second Chance and Fate Link are from the Seer discipline list.

Now I have to figure out what Varla should do. Should she be more offensive or defensive? Offense can win the match with some favorable rolls (Jéjé fails some saves), but defense would give her a better chance if he does save. Decisions!

[Tashalar]

Second Chance and Fate Link are from the Seer discipline list.
Ah, thanks.

Decisions!
Oh noez! The horror! :cool:

[Tashalar]

James has taken 7 points of Cha damage, Boom. :)

Now he's got the advantage on his side. I'll be curious as to what Link will do with both his characters.

[SlagMortar]

(I assume that you misread the map, Lilith is on the left, P-1 is the furthest square from James which she can reach. Please let me know if this assumption is wrong.)
You are quite right. I did misread the map. Good thing I included intent. Thanks for moving Lilith appropriately.

Also, it might be worth noting in James's stat block that he has lost his +2 to saves from divine grace now that his Charisma has dropped.

[SlagMortar]

Boom, I calculated the cost of the quickened ego whip incorrectly - assigning 4 PP for quicken instead of 6 as would be correct. It should have cost 2 more power points. Lilith is still capable of manifesting it as the cost is 3 + 4 + 6 = 13 is reduced by 1 from the torc of power preservation.

[Boomlaor]

I double checked that, but I misread the ego whip entry, thinking it only cost 2 points to augment, so I thought your total was correct in spite of the mistake on quicken power. Thanks for pointing that out though, I'll fix it in the next update.

[Lord Twig]

Well Varla's move is posted. I think I got everything right. This is all new for me too. :)

[Tashalar]

Youch! Nice moves, LT!

So... if I fail the cloud mind, it's more or less over. Even if Jéjé gets some kind of attack in, Varla will now have Elan resistance and second chance to back her up.

If I make the save, then I'll have to deal with (damn, you rolled high) with that blasted energy stun. The DCs don't really look manageable.

Quickened Powers do not need defensive casting indeed.


Now... I am really not sure what to do about that reroll of mine. Jéjé will recognize what spells are cast at him in both cases without having to make a check. I'll just say that he'll try to evade the cloud mind with a luck reroll - I guess that's most in-character for him.

I'll do it the way I said... he needs an 8 to make the check and I'll roll a d6.
1: reroll on below 5
2: reroll on below 6
3: reroll on below 7
4: reroll on below 9
5: reroll on below 10
6: reroll on below 11
... even though I don't think this will play out in my favor.

I'll have to figure out what to do about the energy stun after that. No idea right now.

Edit: Well, I somehow managed to botch the rolls. Tried to correct them by adding /roll, but it didn't work. Now we'll have to wait for the DM... ;)

On the second and maybe third save - would it be fair if he'd make a reroll on a roll of 15 or lower?
Come on... someone say something on this issue. I'm kinda regretting having taken the luck blade simply because I'm spending the most time thinking about how not to metagame instead of having fun. :?

[SlagMortar]

Come on... someone say something on this issue.
I think you should just go with a basic rule of thumb on the re-roll, which shouldn't be too hard since you can identify all the powers. Something like: Jeje assume everyone has a 20 in their casting attribute and augments quickened powers to ML 12 - 6 and non-quickened powers to ML 12. Done and done. So for energy stun, assume the DC is 26 (10 base +5 Int +2 power +9 augment). For cloud mind, assume the DC is 17 (10 base +5 Int + 2 level)

[Tashalar]

Sounds reasonable... and much more to my benefit than what I did for this one.

Let's see what the others say, I'm going to bed now anyways. :)

[LeadPal]

You know, with the kerfuffle over the importance of initiative, I can't believe Link's the only person who's taken Danger Sense.

[Boomlaor]

To me the Luck Blade's power provides an OOC mechanic for the nebulous concept of "luck." Once per day, you can be a bit lucky, or can attempt to erase some bad luck. I personally don't have any problem with ooc considerations in deciding when to use it. It's a once per match item for you, and since you can identify the powers, you can decide whether or not to use it on any particular failed save.

[Lord Twig]

Interesting. I always figured that you made the roll, then if you failed you would take the re-roll. Does it say some where that you have to decide whether to re-roll or not before you know if you succeeded?

[Lord Twig]

You know, with the kerfuffle over the importance of initiative, I can't believe Link's the only person who's taken Danger Sense.

It's a great power, but you can not have any powers active at the beginning of the match, so it won't help you at all if you lose initiative.

[SlagMortar]

The luck blade does not say if you have to decide to use it before you see the success or failure of theroll. However, the similar Luck domain power says:
This extraordinary ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities) allows you to reroll one roll that you have just made before the game master declares whether the roll results in success or failure.

[Boomlaor]

LT, you indicated that Energy Stun would do 3d8. As I read it, a energy stun (cold) deals 1d6+1, with an additional 1d6+1 per point you augment it with, so the one you are manifesting would be 10d6+10. Am I wrong?

Edit: Looking at the luck domain and the luck blade, I hereby rule as follows: since the wording of the two supernatural abilities is almost identical, with the exception that the luck blade does not specify that the choice to re-roll must be made before the results are known, I surmise that the omission was intentional. Therefore, you may freely decide when to use your 1 re-roll per day without worrying about impropper metagaming. If you don't feel ok about that, I can request that people not indicate what the DCs are for their powers and I can suggest that you not surmise what the DCs are, and you can roll your save and decide whether or not to use the luckblade before I update the bout, but that seems needlessly complicated to me.


edit 2: right, so this is another case of my utter lack of reading comprehension. the 3d8 were for overchannel, update on the way.

[Lord Twig]

Yep, that was the damage Varla did to herself. Hopefully it will be worth it. (crosses fingers) :)

[Lord Twig]

Boom, I would be amazed if Tash did not want to re-roll that last save. It would reduce the damage and prevent him from having to roll a Will save at all.

All that worrying about nothing! I don't think anyone would choose to re-roll an 18 or choose to not re-roll a 3. ;)

[Linklegacy77]

This is my official protest. Sorry Boom, but you are moving too fast, and haven't looked over james well enough. His feat allows him to roll initiative again if his first roll is less than my foes. Since I rolled a natural 1, I guarentee you I want to reroll, so I could have won initiative even so.

Jame's fight needs to be completely redone, if he won initiative. Since you are doing all rolls, you need to roll again at a +17 and see if he wins. If he does, it needs to be redone. If he doesn't, we'll continue from here.

[Lord Twig]

Ah, that's what LeadPal was talking about above. I assumed he meant the Danger Sense Power, but you have the Danger Sense Feat. I do not have the Complete: Psionic book, so I have no way of knowing what some of the things you guys have do.

Like Improved Manifester. Sounds like it would be good, but don't know really what it does.

Also, what is Psionic Sneak Attack? I think I read somewhere that you can only Sneak Attack if you are Psionically Focused. Can you just keep using Psionic Sneak Attack or do you still need to catch your opponent flat-footed?

[Tashalar]

Jame's fight needs to be completely redone, if he won initiative. Since you are doing all rolls, you need to roll again at a +17 and see if he wins. If he does, it needs to be redone. If he doesn't, we'll continue from here.
Ha! Know what everyone?

I think it's rather sad that Link is up against three noobs. There's no honor for an 18th level character to defeat a 3rd level one.... :P

Seriously, I did not even look more than a few seconds in the other books - danger sense is an obvious choice. As is ability focus (lurk augment) - or would've been for my character.

Psionic sneak attack functions exactly like sneak attack except that you have to be psionically focussed to do it.

[Tashalar]

Okay, finish him, LT. :x-eyed:

[Linklegacy77]

I'm rather interested in what Timmy's readied action is for fighting George.

I originally thought it might be to manifest dispel psionics to counterspell, but there is no such thing as counterspelling powers (or countermanifesting)

[Lord Twig]

Okay, finish him, LT. :x-eyed:

Eew, ouch! My rolls have been almost obscene in this match. I think luck will be a big factor in who wins this thing.

Honestly Varla would have preferred not to kill Jéjé (or should I call him Nick?). He needs to fight her opponents and the stronger he is the better chance he has of killing his opponents and making them weaker when she faces them. Problem is I couldn't really justify using anything less than full power since Varla really doesn't have any way of knowing how much damage she still needs to do to take him out. Of course with my rolls she might have killed him anyway. :depry:

[Tashalar]

Youch indeed! Damage was decidedly above average (even though average damage would have been enough - so no worries there) and the save/attack of 20/19 was rather.... ugh. ;)

Varla.... ONE!!

Everyone else.... ZERO!! :roll:

I'm rather interested in what Timmy's readied action is for fighting George.

Whatever it is... I don't think he can stand up to the construct. On the other hand, I haven't checked his character sheet for possible options again.

[Linklegacy77]

Well... nobody in this competition can stand up to the construct. That's the point.

[Tashalar]

Well... nobody in this competition can stand up to the construct. That's the point.
Yup, only chance really is to take out the psion - other characters have a better chance at achieving this than Timmy. Actually... maybe this pairing is the worst there can be for Timmy.

[Boomlaor]

My appologies Link, I completely forgot about that feat. My dice have rewarded you for your agony, (sorry Slag).

[Tashalar]

Boom - now that the first match is won (or lost, depends on the pov... ;) ), I'd love to have a score board. Maybe not a separate thread, but maybe in your first post right at the start of the sign-up thread? That would be awesome.

[SlagMortar]

Ah, damn! I forgot that an augmented power is still considered only it's original level. Oh well. Looks like George would have made the concentration check either way.

[SlagMortar]

By the way, cool build Link. Certainly not something Timmy is going to be very effective against.

[Tashalar]

Yep, that's what I mused earlier as well. It's probably the character where Timmy has the lowest chance of winning after all... the construct is just too powerful and incredible saves don't help against it.

[Lord Twig]

Sorry about the level loss Tashalar. I would have preferred it be otherwise, as I said before. But look at the bright side, if the tournament was being run in the original format Jéjé would have been dead and had his brain eaten already. (Of course that still might be his final fate. :) )

[Boomlaor]

For everyone's convenience and edification, and because I didn't know how it worked, I looked up the mechanic for level loss for a psionic character:

-1 on all skill checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#skillChecks) and ability checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#abilityChecks).
-1 on attack rolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll) and saving throws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#savingThrows).
-5 hit points.
-1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).
A psionic character loses access to one power per negative level from the highest level of power he can manifest; he also loses a number of power points equal to the cost of that power. If two or more powers fit these criteria, the manifester decides which one becomes inaccessible. The lost power becomes available again as soon the negative level is removed, providing the manifester is capable of using it at that time. Lost power points also return.

[Tashalar]

Ugh. My will to take on more contestants is faltering currently, but I will be back full strength soon! And... and... maybe I'll even win a match after:
reducing hp by 6
reducing Dex by 1 => AC by 1 => initiative by 1 => reflex save by 1
reducing BAB by 1 => and therefore all attacks including grapple
reducing psionic sneak attack by 1d6
all saves by 1
reducing max ranks to 14 and 9 skill points total
removing the lurk augment, ranged feat
reducing manifester level by one
reducing power points by level and bonus power points
removing the death urge power*sniffle*

Edit: No problem, LT - you just failed to roll low enough not to kill him... ;)

Boom - I think that's what a negative level means. That's something different - that's when one is hit by a ray of enervation for example. The 'level loss' means that the level is 'gone'. You are actually reduced by one entire level - which I just did. If I am wrong, please do correct me...

[Boomlaor]

See my post just previous to yours. It still isn't fun, but it's not quite as bad as you would make it out.

Edit: it occurs to me that I should think about exp for victories. That might let those who lose a lvl regain it as you end up halfway inbetween the lvls.

[Tashalar]

I don't think that's how it works, Boom - see my post above...

Hehe... let's start a cross-referencing match! LOL

Edit: XP would not help the level 12 winners much (they would reach 13th level after 4 wins - 3600 per win) while it might help the level 11 losers as they get more XP. But... they are less probable to win after all. Go with it or drop it - I don't think it'll have much of any effect.

[Tashalar]

I'm sorry for the confusion re: initiative in this bout. Slag, you will get to post a new action for round 1 after Link goes, or you can allow that one to stand, your choice.
Boom - imo if you redo the match from round one, then just scrap all posts and really start over.

And I still need clarification on the level loss issue within the next days some time (no hurry, honestly - the other matches are still ongoing) - if you use the rules as per resurrection, then what I posted is the way 'to go' I think. But you somehow got me unsure now - maybe someone else could chime in?

[Linklegacy77]

He's houseruling it to make it less of a problem for future matches. If you actually lost a full level after a death, future opponents you might have won easily against could defeat you.

And sorry you had to face me twice in the first round Slag...

[Boomlaor]

This spell functions like raise dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm), except that you are able to restore life and complete strength to any deceased creature....Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no loss of prepared spells. However, the subject loses one level, or 2 points of Constitution if the subject was 1st level. (If this reduction would bring its Con to 0 or lower, it can’t be resurrected).
Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The subject of the spell loses one level (or 1 Hit Die) when it is raised, just as if it had lost a level or a Hit Die to an energy-draining creature. If the subject is 1st level, it loses 2 points of Constitution instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can’t be raised).
The character gains one or more negative levels, which might permanently drain the character’s levels. If the subject has at least as many negative levels as Hit Dice, he dies. Each negative level gives a creature the following penalties: -1 penalty on attack rolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll), saving throws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#savingThrows), skill checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#skillChecks), ability checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#abilityChecks); loss of 5 hit points; and -1 to effective level (for determining the power, duration, DC, and other details of spells or special abilities).
Negative Levels: Psionic characters can gain negative levels (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/abilitiesAndConditions.html#energy-drained) just like members of other character classes. A psionic character loses access to one power per negative level from the highest level of power he can manifest; he also loses a number of power points equal to the cost of that power. If two or more powers fit these criteria, the manifester decides which one becomes inaccessible. The lost power becomes available again as soon the negative level is removed, providing the manifester is capable of using it at that time. Lost power points also return.

That was the train of thought which I followed to come to my conclusion. If you really want to lose those additional benefits, you are welcome to try to convince me otherwise. Whatever my final decision, it will apply to all characters killed in this tournament.

Edit: this is also what happened to my monk in LT's duel arcana. I don't know if he was houseruling something or if he merely had the same understanding as I do of the rules.

[Linklegacy77]

It functions as Raise Dead, but the "However...." notates a difference. You actually do lose a level.

The actual, correct method to use here is thus:


Level Loss

A character who loses a level instantly loses one Hit Die. The character’s base attack bonus, base saving throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#savingThrows) bonuses, and special class abilities are now reduced to the new, lower level. Likewise, the character loses any ability score gain, skill ranks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/skillsSummary.htm#skillRanks), and any feat associated with the level (if applicable). If the exact ability score or skill ranks increased from a level now lost is unknown (or the player has forgotten), lose 1 point from the highest ability score or ranks from the highest-ranked skills. If a familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#familiars) or companion creature has abilities tied to a character who has lost a level, the creature’s abilities are adjusted to fit the character’s new level.
The victim’s experience point total is immediately set to the midpoint of the previous level.

Regretting the glass cannon yet Tash? I promise to make you regret it more ^^.

George might lose to your lurk, but James should be able to defeat him. Plus, if for some reason George gets an action, it's game over right then. Nobody in this competition has a chance against the Astral Construct.

Plus, the astral construct can't be affected by Cloud Mind, so I might not know you are there, but it sure does ^^. So he could have a decent chance in that battle too. I just don't want them to fight each other ><, although I think James would win.

EDIT: You forgot to increase James' hit points to 94...

[Tashalar]

Regretting the glass cannon yet Tash? I promise to make you regret it more ^^.Nope, not really. Under the conditions set for the tournament, a lurk (glass cannon) was the only thing I could easily get together. I've heard of the construct builds in my time on 3ebb and now dragonavenue obviously, but it was much too complicated for my tastes to get into. In the end I could've made some valid opponents who would have brought nothing new to the table, so I dropped that. :)

I actually dropped it at a point when I was a bit frustrated as to how damn important initiative is in this tourney. If you win it, you've almost won (Varla would not have survived two stun rounds ;) ). If you win, but the opponent saves against 'whatever', you lose most probably.

I like taking part in this because I can see and learn how psionics work - but there isn't as much suspense in this as in the gladiator tournament by far. I guess the duel arcana was more exciting in a way as well due to the contestants being decidedly lower level and the matches taking longer therefore - and the whole counterspelling issue also gave it a spin. Finally, it's just fun to continue doing those tourneys with people I've met and come to like here on ORP - so that makes up for the lack of suspense if the learning effect as such doesn't already! :)

Oh, I'm also curious as to how the other contestants will do against each other. Losing that 12th level (a lot of things go up there + feat, ability increase, etc.) does hamper Jéjé's ability to be effective, but as I said... I will strive to win at least one match! Okay, I didn't say that before, but I say it now! :roll:

[Boomlaor]

Well, I've committed myself to running this as a RAW tournament, but that seems overly punitive to me, not to mention making it near impossible for a character who dies more than once to ever win again. Fortunately, my research through the SRD has provided a solution which satisfies both concerns. Psionic Revivify is a 5th lvl power, and I can't imagine that the owner of a slave would not use it in the event of his slave's death. All killed characters will be raised with Psionic Revivify and healed to full health.

[Tashalar]

Ah, that actually fits perfectly theme-wise and is less penalizing for the contestants. Since you introduced this rule during the tournament I guess it's just as well to change it (effectively removing the negative effect).

I'll jump in bed now... this was good news just before sleep. :)

[Lord Twig]

Well, I've committed myself to running this as a RAW tournament, but that seems overly punitive to me, not to mention making it near impossible for a character who dies more than once to ever win again. Fortunately, my research through the SRD has provided a solution which satisfies both concerns. Psionic Revivify is a 5th lvl power, and I can't imagine that the owner of a slave would not use it in the event of his slave's death. All killed characters will be raised with Psionic Revivify and healed to full health.

Perfect! And a lot less costly than a True Resurrection. :)

[SlagMortar]

I like that solution very much, Boom. If we are doing a round robin, then the order of the matches should really have no effect.

And sorry you had to face me twice in the first round Slag...
I haven't exactly conceded either match just yet. :) I admit Timmy's chances don't look very good, but Lilith could certainly be in a worse position. Not that she's necessarily in the best position since I'm not quite sure what you are planning.

[SlagMortar]

In Lilith vs James
1. James should have taken 6 Cha damage since the ego whip was empowered.
2. James's Cha damage should be noted in his stat block.
3. Lilith's Mental Barrier expires in Round 6 because she augmented it to last an additional 4 rounds.

[Linklegacy77]

Slag: You can't use the torc that way. Yes, it reduces the power points you spend by 1, but you can't use it to go over the limit. It saves power points, but it doesn't increase your effective manifester level. I'll wait for an update here since that fact forces you to sacrifice something from last round.

[SlagMortar]

Do you have an FAQ or something that says that?

As I understand it:

Manifester Level

The variables of a power’s effect often depend on its manifester level, which is equal to your psionic class level. A power that can be augmented for additional effect is also limited by your manifester level (you can’t spend more power points on a power than your manifester level). See Augment under Descriptive Text, below.


And:

Torc of Power Preservation

This item is a band inlaid with precious metal, worn around the neck or upper arm. The wearer of a torc of power preservation manifests all powers by paying power points equal to the standard cost minus 1 (minimum of 1).

This should mean that the cost of an empowered thrice augmented power is 17. However, the cost for Lilith is reduced by 1 to 16. It does not say PP spent is reduced by 1. It says the cost is reduced by 1. Lilith never spent more PP than her manifester level.

An analogy would be if you have $10 in your pocket and you want to by something from Best Buy that costs $12. If there is a $2 instant rebate, then you can purchase the item. if there is a $2 mail in rebate, then you can not. The wording of the torc says it functions like an instant rebate because it reduces the cost rather than gives you back some amount that you paid.

[Boomlaor]

I agree with Slag's reading. Your concern, Link, was something I initially shared and looked at, but because the Torc doesn't pay 1 point per power manifested, it reduces the cost, he isn't spending more points on the power than his manifester level.

[Tashalar]

I'm not sure it was meant to work the way it's being used now, but I do think it is written in a way to suggest it does.

This isn't even worth 3 cents though. ;)

[Linklegacy77]

Actually, upon further reading of the item, as written, it does function like that, but for a different reason. As written, it takes away 1 point from the standard cost of the power (I.E. The BASE COST), before augmenting. Thus, this works for any power other than a level 1 power.


...equal to the standard cost minus 1 (minimum 1)...

[SlagMortar]

My opinion is that the standard cost of an augmented power is the base cost of the power plus the cause of the augmentations. I think the language of "standard cost" is meant to prevent stacking. Otherwise, some industrious munchkin might make a torc of power preservation, a belt of power preservation, bracers of power preservation, etc. and manifest all powers at X less than they should.

If standard cost means base cost, then perhaps Lilith should not have to pay for any augmentations at all. Augmented powers are a subset of "all powers". If the "standard cost" of an augmented power is the base cost of the augmented power (i.e. 3 for an ego whip), then the torc allows Lilith to manifest a augmented power for the base cost minus 1 (i.e. 2 for an ego whip augmented 20 times). Of course, that is ludicrous.

[Linklegacy77]

Incorrect. Augmented powers are not a subset of powers, they are the exact same power with extra points spent for a greater effect. Your logic is also fallible, the torc takes away one point before augmentations are added.

[Boomlaor]

I think of the Torc of Power Preservation as (to continue the store analogy) a discount for having an appropriate card. I.e. for those who have a AAA card, many hotels or rental car companies will give a 10% discount. For those who have the card, the cost of the room or rental car is x-10%. For someone wearing a Torc, the cost of a power is whatever it would cost -1. A power which would cost someone else 13pp costs them 12pp, and someone with Manifester Level 12 could manifest a power which would cost someone else 13pp.

Next question: I'm not sure my most recent update in the George v Timmy fight is correct, and I wanted imput. I think that George can use resilience as an immediate action to reduce damage caused by a readied action, but I'm not sure for the following reason: George was in the midst of manifesting a power when he was interrupted by the readied action (power manifested by Timmy). Can George stop manifesting the power to use an immediate action also costing power points and then resume manifesting the power?

[SlagMortar]

I'm not saying you are wrong. However, I fail to see an order of operations in the psionics rules. I see some abiguities:
1. augmented powers may or may not be included in all powers
2. the torc may or may not subtract 1 from the cost before augmentations are applied.

Anyway, I'm not that interested in arguing for one interpretation over another. The only difference is whether the torc is useful on augmented 1st level powers, which doesn't seem that important, though it could come up. I do see either interpretation as supportable under the rules.

The phrase "standard cost" is only used twice in the SRD according to d20srd.org - once in the torc description and once in the epic metapsionic feats where it refers to the standard cost of a metaspionic feat. In the augmenting powers section the rules use "base cost". They may have been clunky in their terminology or they may have intentionally used a different term.

[SlagMortar]

Can George stop manifesting the power to use an immediate action also costing power points and then resume manifesting the power?
I think the rules support using an immediate action during another action. The language on immediate actions say they can be used "any time", with no restriction.

But, I would have allowed free actions to be used during a full attack action (such as charging a deep crystal weapon before each attack). This was discussed earlier in the thread and I think someone said you couldn't use other actions during an action.

Edit: I can think of some other examples of free actions during actions that I think at least many people allow:
1. Quickdraw weapons during a full attack.
2. Drawing ammunition during a full attack.
3. Moving into opponent's space during a grapple - though this might be an error in terminology

[Boomlaor]

Yeah, I saw that same language "can be used at any time" and so that's how I resolved the round, but it didn't feel quite right to me, so I wanted other input.

[Tashalar]

Hm... my first thought was that one cannot do one action during another. As you mention the deep crystal example - yes, I had thought of a two-weapon fighting character who recharges the weapons in-between the attacks and was told (IIRC) that it doesn't work (even though it is a free action).

Quickdraw is used to draw thrown weapon in-between attacks, so that's an obvious go (another free action).

I cannot think of immediate/swift actions that can be taken during an action though. It's certainly an interesting situation as the elan's immediate actions are specifically made to counter attacks/spells and in such a common situation that someone tries to disrupt a spell, it should not work?

[Boomlaor]

In posts 24, 25 and 26 of this thread, Tash, LT and Link all imply or say that you can't take one action while taking another. Where did any of you get this? I'm hoping that this may shed some light and either confirm what I did as correct or hold it incorrect.

[SlagMortar]

Here's some possibly useful info:

Standard Action: A standard action allows you to do something, most commonly make an attack or cast a spell. See Table: Actions in Combat for other standard actions.
Move Action: A move action allows you to move your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time. See Table: Actions in Combat.
You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.
Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions (see below).
Some full-round actions do not allow you to take a 5-foot step.
Some full-round actions can be taken as standard actions, but only in situations when you are limited to performing only a standard action during your round. The descriptions of specific actions, below, detail which actions allow this option.
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free.
Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don’t take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else.

(I added the bolding on Full-Round Action)

Full-Round Action explicitly states that you can perform free actions (and by extension swift actions and immediate actions) while performing the full round action. Move Actions and Standard Actions do not state that. This could be read to imply they work differently. Also, the way spring attack, fly-by attack, and shot on the run are worded imply that you can not take a standard action during a move action - otherwise these feats would be worthless. However, if a character can only take free actions while taking a full round action, we end up in an odd situation where an Elan can use his immediate action defenses while performing a full round action, but not during a standard action. An Elan sorcerer could use them while casting a metamagic enhanced spell, but not a normal spell. That doesn't really make sense at all.

[Lord Twig]

In posts 24, 25 and 26 of this thread, Tash, LT and Link all imply or say that you can't take one action while taking another. Where did any of you get this? I'm hoping that this may shed some light and either confirm what I did as correct or hold it incorrect.

I guess it might have been implied in my post, but I did say I wasn't sure. :)

According to what Slag just posted it looks like you can charge your deep crystal weapon during a full attack.

It seems reasonable that the Elan ability should be allowed at any time, even in the middle of a standard action.

[Linklegacy77]

Immediate actions are the exception: it specifically states that they can be used any time.

I won't fight it further, but the torc is overpowered for it's cost if it is permitted to be used in that manner. It's effectively an extra manifester level when you want it to be, which is quite powerful.

EDIT: If Lillith fails her save here (which she has a better than 50/50 chance of doing), the fights over. She either auto-crits herself for two turns in a row, or runs up to me and provokes an AoO, then sits there while I slaughter her, and if she survives, she provokes another AoO next round.

[Boomlaor]

Alrighty, my gut was wrong on that one it seems. Big shock there. :) . It's amazing how much you learn about the rules during these Tournaments.

[Linklegacy77]

Boom, Lillith only has a +11 to will saves, she actually failed that saving throw, unless I'm missing something.

But, James has to spend 1 additional power point, bringing the cost up to 12. Not that it matters much, but it is worth noting. (telepathy power).

Still, Mental barrier only adds to AC, not saves.

[Boomlaor]

Yes, but she has a +2 morale bonus to attacks, damage and saves from her wild surge without self enervating.

[Linklegacy77]

I was just about to edit it, I found that. Lol

Nuts to that.

[Boomlaor]

Don't know whether to call it bad luck for James or good luck for Lilith, but the dice seem to like her so far.

[Linklegacy77]

Yeah, I know. She's been very lucky so far. Very very lucky.

[Tashalar]

Hey, these matches weren't supposed to take so long! LT and I are getting bored! :roll:

Well, LT maybe isn't. He can boast being the only participant having won so far... :KO:

[Linklegacy77]

Well, you can rest easy knowing that George has more or less already won.

[SlagMortar]

I had posted this note on Lilith's last action.
She will use empty mind at full augment on any will save power.
Was that missed or is there another reason why Lilith did not used Empty Mind last round? Lilith should have used an immediate action to spend 11 PP on Empty mind for a +7 bonus to will saves.

I need to know whether that Lilith still has her swift action for the round.

Yeah, I know. She's been very lucky so far. Very very lucky.
How so? She lost initiative so a bad roll by James didn't matter there as it provided her no advantage. Her roll for ego whip damage was slightly below average. James made the only save he's attempted when he had a 20% chance of failure - not a high chance, but hardly negligible. Lilith made a save that had a 45% chance of failure, or 10% if Empty Mind is used as I intended. If it's the 45%, then that's somewhat lucky, but hardly very, very lucky.

[Tashalar]

I admit, I am always confused as to when a swift/immediate action counts for this round or that round.

Mental Barrier is an immediate action - so she doesn't have another in that round. But James' action isn't on that round, it's on the next, so she could use empty mind then. This would mean that she does not have another swift/immediate action in that round.

Hhrm... could one delay until the beginning of the next round to then be able to use a swift action again? Is it the 'official' round that counts or the round in-between one's turns? See, I'm confused.

There is an inconsistency with the number of dierolls in this post due to editing!
Slag, you cheater!! :fun:
Ha, first time I get to see this...

[Boomlaor]

Hm, I missed that empty mind. Reading comprehension 21, Boom 0. Well, since you posted ahead of time that you'd use it if forced to make a will save, you should have used it. I'll edit that in.


You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn).
Since you used it during James's turn, you cannot use another swift or immediate action 'till after your next turn.

[Tashalar]

Aaaah... see, I should've looked it up. It's not 'rounds' but 'turns' - which makes much more sense. Waiting for the next round will... not help. :x-eyed:

[Tashalar]

Wow. Just wow. Kudos for the fastest update ever, BOOM!!

3 minutes is quite the record! :nod:

[SlagMortar]

Hm, I missed that empty mind. Reading comprehension 21, Boom 0.
I should have posted it more prominently.

I was pretty sure that Lilith got to use the Empty Mind power for her immediate action, then she would not have a swift action during the upcoming round. If there was some reason that prohibited her from using Empty Mind, though, then she would have still had it.

Oh and regarding luck, and I forgot about the enervate roll Lilith has made. That was another 80% chance of success, though, so while it is lucky she made it, there was a good chance of success.

[Boomlaor]

:) Easy when I don't have to do any rolls or change a map.

[SlagMortar]

And with that Ego Whip roll, Lilith has now officially been very unlucky.

[Tashalar]

Yep, indeed. Edit: But if James fails, he suffers 15 Cha damage which is enough.

Boom:
Empty Mind - +7 to will saves, expires initiative count 33 round 3.
I think it should be +8 to will saves (1 PP for the power, 12 PPs to augment 6 times reduced by one with the torc) - +2 base +6 for the augments.

[SlagMortar]

I think it should be +8 to will saves (1 PP for the power, 12 PPs to augment 6 times reduced by one with the torc) - +2 base +6 for the augments.
It depends whether the torc can be used on level 1 powers or not. That's up to Boom. Though if the torc can not be used, then the save is +7, but the cost is only 11 PP - 1 base +10 augments.

[SlagMortar]

Boomlaor the updating machine!

Quick note:
James will save +15 (+7 base +2 wis -1 cha +5 cloak +2 power) = 33 vs DC 21
Divine Grace only functions if the character has a charisma bonus. Thus, James does not take a penalty to his saves from his charisma penalty. His will save should be +16.

[Boomlaor]

The torc can be used on lvl 1 powers. Reading comprehension 22, Boom 0. I assumed that unaugmented it provided a +1 bonus.

As to the Divine Grace, I found this in the FAQ which made me think that it worked that way, but as always, I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong.

Does a cloak of Charisma, an eagle’s splendor spell, or other
Charisma enhancements increase the saving throw bonus
from a paladin’s divine grace class feature?

Yes, use the paladin’s current Charisma modifier, whatever
it might be. Temporary Charisma increases also increase the
saving throw bonus from divine grace. On the other hand,
temporary Charisma decreases reduce the saving throw bonus
from divine grace as well.

[Linklegacy77]

Decreases yes, but not below the minimum. As per the rules, whenever the word bonus is used, the modifier can only be positive. If there is a penalty, it is not applied. Whenever it says you add your modifier, then your modifier is added, whether it is negative or positive. Whenever it says penalty, then it can only be negative. Divine Grace can never penalize your character.

Well, I'm forcing an end to this bought one way or another. Lillith can't use another empowered ego whip, so she needs to hit me for 4 more points of CHA damage to beat me. If this attack lands (roll of 13 or better), Lillith loses. If it misses, she's got another chance to take down James.

[SlagMortar]

(I did the math out using Pythagorean theorem. To move to S2 from Jame's location is 57.008 feet, thus, he can charge from his location.)
D&D doesn't use Pythagorean Theorem for diagonal movements. It uses every other diagonal move costs 2 squares.

[Tashalar]

In this case it doesn't matter as it's exactly 60 feet movement to S2 for James.

BP did use the Pythagorean Theorem as well, I don't really see how that hurts.

[Tashalar]

Divine Grace (Su): At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.
You need to look in the most obvious places first, Boom! ;)

[Boomlaor]

Gotta stick with RAW, so every other diagonal square counts for 2 squares. However, as Tashalar pointed out, S-2 is exactly 60' of move by that count.

[SlagMortar]

In this case it doesn't matter as it's exactly 60 feet movement to S2 for James.
So it is. I miscounted. Congrats, Link! That Int damage is nasty!

[Tashalar]

Hm... when the scimitar attacks Timmy, doesn't it have a chance of attacking the construct instead due to the two being in a grapple?

Edit: Oh! I missed James' win! Congrats, Link! Quite some luck there, hm? :roll:

[Boomlaor]

I think that only applies to ranged attacks, Tash, which this technically isn't. A Psychic Scimitar is a melee touch attack, even at a distance. I can't seem to find the SRD section which supports this at the moment though.

[Tashalar]

I can't find anything either so unless someone else helps us out, ignore my comment. :)

[Black Plauge]

Only time I ever used the pythagorean theorem was for motion in 3 dimensions. I always counted squares for 2-d motion.

[Tashalar]

Right, when we were flying nuisances - now I remember. ;)

[Boomlaor]

Found it. Table: Armor Class Modifiers at this link http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#concealment says that the rule you remembered applies to ranged attacks only. Since Timmy was pinned, his AC should have been even lower, as he should have been treated as if he has a dex modifier of -5.

edit: Tashalar! You dare to mock my MS Paint skills in the Stables thread!?!?! I SMITE you!!

[Linklegacy77]

Lillith's biggest weakness in this competition is that both lurks can drop her in one hit, should they land the blow, because of her low int.

[Lord Twig]

Just for my own edification, Mental Assault does the Int damage and Deceptive Strike allows you to make a Sneak Attack on a person even if they are not flat-footed?

Varla is definitely watching each match carefully. That last attack from James certainly raised an eyebrow.

[Tashalar]

Yes, Mental assault does 2 Int or Wis damage (attacker's choice) +1 per 2 PPs augmented and deceptive strike negates the opponent's Dex bonus (effectively allowing to sneak attack).

[Linklegacy77]

Don't get me wrong, Lillith put up one HELL of a fight. She would have won had I not designed James to have really good saving throws.

Tash's Lurk has more offensive power than mine, but the Lurk doesn't need that much offensive power to win, so I focused on defense.

[Tashalar]

Varla is definitely watching each match carefully. That last attack from James certainly raised an eyebrow.
Are we assuming that our contestants are watching the other matches and learning? If that is the case, Jéjé would've probably noted the move James used. Which means a high win chance (using his luck reroll on the attack roll if he misses) if he wins initiative vs. Lilith. I'm not sure I like it this way so I guess I'll go for my standard stun and hope Lilith has less luck than Varla. ;)

[SlagMortar]

Lillith's biggest weakness in this competition is that both lurks can drop her in one hit, should they land the blow, because of her low int.
I think her biggest weakness is a total lack of flexibility in her powers. Cha damage was a very poor choice against James, but that's all she's got. Of course, I built her that way on purpose. :) James weakness is a lack of mobility, which Lilith wasn't able to take advantage of since she's built for one thing: deliver as much Cha damage in one round as possible, and she rolled poorly at that.

Edit: Something else I didn't consider when choosing Empower was how the rounding down often effects it twice. 9 * 1.5 round down = 13. 13 / 2 round down = 6. If the 4d4 had rolled 10, the damage on a save is 7; rolled 11 the damage is 8; rolled 12, the damage is 9.

[Tashalar]

edit: Tashalar! You dare to mock my MS Paint skills in the Stables thread!?!?! I SMITE you!!
NononoNOOOO!! I did not mock!! I... I... I roleplayed! And now I wanna have roleplaying XP! Did you not notice how Jéjé turned away when the mind flayer turned around to face him? Wasn't that an absolutly dazzling display of roleplaying at its Mount Everest?! Truly, he deserves to be epic for this. :nod:

James weakness is a lack of mobility, which Lilith wasn't able to take advantage of since she's built for one thing: deliver as much Cha damage in one round as possible, and she rolled poorly at that.If Lilith manages to win initiative vs. Jéjé or saves against his stunning attack, she'll take him out in one go. I promise you. ;)

Edit: Yeah, you always lose out at least once when the opponent saves an empowered ego whip of yours...

[SlagMortar]

Are we assuming that our contestants are watching the other matches and learning? If that is the case, Jéjé would've probably noted the move James used. Which means a high win chance (using his luck reroll on the attack roll if he misses) if he wins initiative vs. Lilith. I'm not sure I like it this way so I guess I'll go for my standard stun and hope Lilith has less luck than Varla.
I wouldn't object to Jéjé using Mental Assault. She should have just as good a chance of knowing intelligence is Lilith's weakness as James did. And if you read the insults, you know intelligence is not her strong suit.

[Tashalar]

Still won't use it. Simply to spite you. You will have to make that stun save. Ha!

[Tashalar]

Even though I agree that your lurk is a better contestant on average, Link - what about a lurk similar to mine built solely for quickness and damage output?

Grey elf
Dex +7 (starting out at 17 instead of 15 - deduct points from Con/Str)
Int +9 (+6 item instead of +4 item)

Feats: Remove Lurk augment, ranged and add Ability focus (lurk augment). Maybe do away with lurk augment extra and dire stun and take danger sense and some other feat instead. Edit: Maybe extra power (energy stun for a DC 30 stun attack? That would be even more powerful than the lurk attack...)...

The character might still lose to someone like James (if built without danger sense), but winning initiative with a +20 mod shouldn't be that hard - even less with that reroll.

Items:
Boots of speed (12k)
Dex +4 (16k)
Int +6 (36k)
Deep crystal luck blade (23k)
=> 87k

Attack: +18 (reroll possible if necessary)
Damage 3d6 + stun DC 29

Crappy saves, crappy everything except a fast offensive strike - and nice DCs for the powers.

[Boomlaor]

We are assuming that combatants are permitted to observe other bouts.

[Linklegacy77]

Lurks make excellent tournament competitors because of their offensive prowess to be sure, but your version of it takes an inordinate amount of risks. If you win initiative, if you hit, if your opponent fails it's saving throw etc. Without good defenses, you'll lose if something goes wrong. Even with good modifiers, a little bit of bad luck can ruin your day.

[Tashalar]

Aww... you rolled so high on the dispel checks only to roll a '4' on the concentration check. :?

[SlagMortar]

Yeah, but even if successful, I still had to withstand at least two attacks from another construct I imagine. In the shocker of shockers, it turns out that Timmy the Turtle is slow. ;)

By the way, I'm going to be out of town from tomorrow through Monday. I might be able to get a post up in the mean time somewhere, but I might not.

[Boomlaor]

The battles against one's self are never that fun imo, so lets get them over with here in the 2nd round. I'll have round 2 posted up shortly.

edit: wait, that would leave Varla vs Jeje again. hrm. /e plugs the competitors into a giant computer for pairings and receives the answer, "42."

edit2: Round 2 bouts are up. I'll try to keep up with the color commentary and play by play this time.

[Linklegacy77]

Drat, I have to beat myself. That's no fun, either way I lose.

Just so you all recognize it, George should defeat James.

[Lord Twig]

I have a question about Second Chance. I'll post the power then point out the problem I am having.

Second Chance

Clairsentience
Level: Seer 5
Display: Mental
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level or until discharged
Power Points: 9


You take a hand in influencing the probable outcomes of your immediate environment. You see the many alternative branches that reality could take in the next few seconds, and with this foreknowledge you gain the ability to reroll one attack roll, one saving throw, one ability check, or one skill check each round. You must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s worse than the original roll. You do not have to make another roll if satisfied with your original roll.

So when is the power discharged? I figured I could make an extra roll each round since that is what it says in the description. If I can only use it once it is not that useful considering it is a 5th level power.

[Linklegacy77]

Actually, lets look at it the other way. If it was usable every round, it would be equivalent to the spell choose destiny (races of destiny) which is a 9th level cleric spell.

I'd say this is usable once only, but the each round phrase refers to that each round you can choose to use it or not.

Also, Boom, the construct's attack against James should have been against his flat-footed AC, not touch.

[Boomlaor]

LT-
I'm not sure. I seem to remember a general rule for what to do if the stat block disagrees with the descriptive text, but I can't find it at the moment. I'll come up with an answer as fast as I can though.

Link-
It should be against both touch and flat-footed then. The initial attack of a grapple check is a touch attack.

[Linklegacy77]

No, you misunderstood me, lol. The emerald gyre has improved grab, he makes a slam attack and then get's a free grapple attempt.

[Boomlaor]

Well, I can change the text, but the outcome is the same. His grapple damage is the same as his slam damage, and if you grapple an opponent via improved grab, you don't deal the extra damage, unless you have the constrict special attack.

[SlagMortar]

Hmm. I wish I had not known Varla's move and location after she disappeared. After seeing the boots of speed activated, I think I might have been dropped a quickened area dispel psionics 60 feet forward, from guessing that Varla moved forward a move action after disappearing. I'm not going to do that, though since I don't think there's a fair way to. Oh well, no matter.

A question:
If Lilith readied an action to do something as soon as she knew Varla's position, then what would happen when Varla attacked? I think Varla would become visible right after that attack, so Varla's action would be resolved first and then Lilith's action would be resolved (if Varla's action didn't disable Lilith). Then whose turn would it be? Varla's action would be the action that triggered Lilith's readied action, but the readied action wasn't really triggered until Varla's action was completed. Comments?

[Lord Twig]

Actually, lets look at it the other way. If it was usable every round, it would be equivalent to the spell choose destiny (races of destiny) which is a 9th level cleric spell.

I'd say this is usable once only, but the each round phrase refers to that each round you can choose to use it or not.

I disagree. The spell clearly says that you can reroll each round. If this would discharge the spell, it would say so.

I don't have Races of Destiny, so I can't look up that spell. :(

LT-
I'm not sure. I seem to remember a general rule for what to do if the stat block disagrees with the descriptive text, but I can't find it at the moment. I'll come up with an answer as fast as I can though.

I remember seeing it as well and I think the text takes precedence over the stat block, but I'm not positive.

[Boomlaor]

Slag-
Varla moved before manifesting cloud mind. I wouldn't feel as though the action you proposed would be impropper metagaming.

With regard to readying an action, You can ready a standard action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions), a move action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#moveActions), or a free action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#freeActions). To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action. See the part I've itallicized. As goofy as it seems (readied actions often are), I think the readied action would take place prior to the attack.

[SlagMortar]

Varla moved before manifesting cloud mind. I wouldn't feel as though the action you proposed would be impropper metagaming.
You're right, reading comprehension 1, Slag 0. Actually, now that I think about it, cloud mind in an effect on Lilith, not on Varla. Hmm.

As goofy as it seems (readied actions often are), I think the readied action would take place prior to the attack.
Interesting. I'm not sure I like that or find it particularly fair. Hmm. Given that Varla didn't already stun Lilith, now I have to make decisions, decisions. But better than the alternative!

[Boomlaor]

Link-
There are 2 differences between Second Chance as in the descriptive text and Choose Destiny. First, Choose destiny is a swift action. Second, and more importantly, it lets you roll 2 dice and choose which one to use. Second Chance forces you to stick with the re-roll even if it's worse.

One thing gives me pause, however. Fate of One, the lvl 7 Seer Discipline Power is an immediate action which allows you to re-roll one roll you just failed. It's a higher lvl than Second Chance and only allows 1 re-roll. Does the fact that it's an immediate action warrant the higher lvl on its own?

[SlagMortar]

There are 2 differences between Second Chance as in the descriptive text and Choose Destiny. First, Choose destiny is a swift action. Second, and more importantly, it lets you roll 2 dice and choose which one to use. Second Chance forces you to stick with the re-roll even if it's worse.
Given this, it seems 5th level is just about right for a standard action spell. Quicken is a 4 level metamagic, and as you said Choose Destiny is still slightly more powerful than a Quickened Second Chance.

[Boomlaor]

Significant searching of the FAQ and other resources has not directly answered this question. However, the answers to many of the questions in the FAQ reference the description of a spell, feat, or power. None that I could find reference the stat block. My vague memory of the rule re: discrepancies between description and stat block is also that the description takes precedence. Between all that and the analogy that Slag just pointed out, I'll rule that Second Chance functions as per its description, 1 roll/round.

[SlagMortar]

Whew! That roll of 7 on the check to enervate was lucky! I'm glad I didn't surge by more that one!

[Tashalar]

We had the readied action and invisibility issue in the gladiator tournament.

Remember the first match between Rakesh and Spikey? Spikey readied for total defense when Rakesh attacks. Rakesh attacks and becomes visible, his action is interrupted by Spikey who goes on total defense and Rakesh finishes his attack.

Varla becomes visible the moment she starts any kind of attack (I'd say) which means that her attack would be interrupted if you ready.

[SlagMortar]

I remember that, but I didn't necessarily know what the readied action triggered on. I think Spikey would know when being attacked so the readied action could be "Total defense when I am attacked." Lilith's readied action would have to be "Blast Varla when I can see her" because Lilith could not target Varla until she could see her.

I always thought the invisibility ended right after the attack and so that's why the attacker gets the "is invisible" bonuses to hit and the opponent is flat footed. I think Boom's reading conforms to the rules, though, even if I don't think the rules are very consistant here. 'Ready an action' always muddies things up.

[Tashalar]

It does muddy things up, heh.


Okay, Jéjé is trying a different tactic. I've got an idea or two what Timmy might do now, but let's see some rolls first. :)

[Boomlaor]

Where did you want to target your psionic grease, Tash?

[Tashalar]

Ha! Must be quite the picture with Lilith looking somewhere but not at all close to where Varla actually is. :roll:

Edit: Oh. Right. Give me a sec.

[Tashalar]

Updated!

[Tashalar]

Not that it matters, but I think the hexblade's +6 to saves would've come into play for the reflex save. I'd love to see a balance check in full plate and with tower shield but I fear that I won't get to see one? ;)

[Tashalar]

Well, maybe the investment in lurk augment, ranged wasn't so bad after all. And I even got lucky with the attack roll... crazy! :)

Use fully augmented empty mind on any will save and evade attack augmented to evade a standard attack on any ray attack.]
I don't think it'll come up, but just in case - Jéjé would do this the coming round as well.

[Tashalar]

Congrats on achieving "One Thousand and One Nights" status, Boom! Which character from the stories are ya, hm?

But wait... don't post! You'll lose that status again!! :fun:

[Tashalar]

Just checked the wording of the luck blade again - as I read it, it can even be used on initiative checks. I might use this power to give Jéjé an edge in the match vs. James so when it comes to that match, don't post James' initiative, Boom - only Jéjé's. IF I understand the ability correctly.

Might even be something that Red might do in later battles... mhhmm...

[Linklegacy77]

Yes, you can use the luck blade to reroll initiative.

EDIT: I don't know how Varla did it, but Ectoplasmic Shambler is a 1 round manifest. Thus, if she starts manifesting it now, it appears the next time it is her turn.

EDIT^2: Tashalar, you can't use stunning attack on a ranged lurk augment.

[Boomlaor]

Link-
Is James attempting to escape (escape artist check) or to move the grapple (grapple check)?

[Linklegacy77]

escape

[Tashalar]

EDIT^2: Tashalar, you can't use stunning attack on a ranged lurk augment.Thanks, Link. Had forgotten about the restrictions of the lurk augment, ranged feat. Btw - it states that one can choose 2 augments from the list at 10th level. Nowhere does it specify that those 2 augments have to be different augments, does it? So... could one use two stunning attacks or two mental assaults for 10 damage total? Admittedly, I don't think this is how the rules are meant to be, but I'm curious as to whether or not they allow this with a strict interpretation of the wording?

Edit: Hrhm... and I haven't written a PM to you yet today, Link.. and I cannot think of anything, damn! :ditsy:

[Linklegacy77]

By definitions, the answer is no, you can't. It says choose 2 augments from the list. The same augment twice is not two augments, it's one augment used twice.

[Tashalar]

Hm, yeah I agree that this is a plausible way to look at it, but I could also see it this way:
If the text said "choose 2 different augments", it would be clear. Mental assault is an augment and mental assault is also an augment (:evolved:), so I've chosen two augments when I choose twice the same one...

I still don't think it should work that way or was intended to though.

Edit: Btw - just drop the second augment then, Boom. My mistake.

[Boomlaor]

FYI all, I'll be moving this weekend, so I don't know that I'll be able to update again 'till Monday.

[Tashalar]

Though have been updating with the speed of a cheetah, therefore though art forgiven.

Might be that Timmy vs. Jéjé might get to an end as well today... ;)

[Lord Twig]

EDIT: I don't know how Varla did it, but Ectoplasmic Shambler is a 1 round manifest. Thus, if she starts manifesting it now, it appears the next time it is her turn.

Yeah, I missed that. I sent a correction to Boom.

It is too bad I screwed that up because now SlagMortar will have some idea of what I am planning and will need to work extra hard not to metagame.

Sorry Slag! :depry:

[Linklegacy77]

BTW: I think I made George a little bit too overpowered for this contest...

If he gets 1 turn in, you more or less lose automatically.

[Tashalar]

I don't think he's overpowered, Link - he might be the most powerful one (we'll see that soon), but if he loses initiative to Jéjé, he might very well end up stunned for two rounds.

Varla can easily win initiative as well and has a acceptable chance to take him out with energy stun.

Lilith can easily win initiative as well and if she rolls a bit better on her ego whip damage rolls, then it's game over for George as well.


So he might still lose twice... we'll see. He'd be overpowered if he'd have a good chance of beating everyone else at initiative as well. This way... we at least get to make one action and hope. :)

[SlagMortar]

Hey, I got access tonight. I'm not sure how the rest of the weekend will fare, but it sounds like Boom won't be updating until Monday anyway. Just a reminder, I'm out of town until Monday night.
Yeah, I missed that. I sent a correction to Boom.

It is too bad I screwed that up because now SlagMortar will have some idea of what I am planning and will need to work extra hard not to metagame.

Sorry Slag! http://www.online-roleplaying.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley%20-%20depressed.gif

No problem. I already had my next move worked out, so I will just go with that. I will post Lilith's round 2 action. As I understand it, then the shambler will come into view and Varla will have a turn during which Varla has no line of effect to Lilith, right?