[HEC] Pre-Challenge Discussion

[LuneMoonshadow]

Welcome one, welcome all! This is the marvelous Housecat Endurance Challenge® where various characters are set up against nature's most lovable killer. These domesticated felines kill approximately 62 people per year through various means (source (http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/341/lawlta5.jpg)).

Here is where the challenge rules will be created. As of now I have a set that I believe to be pretty workable, though some minor tweaking will no doubt be needed. That is what this thread is for.


Rules!
1. All characters start out at Level 1.
2. HP per level will determine categories.
3. Two modes will be available: Single Endurance and Multiple Endurance.
4. The Arena will be a 100x50 without a scratching post.
5. The Character to progress through the most rounds wins.

Single Endurance: A single housecat will be the opponent every round. There will be no healing in between matches. Other resources are replenished (spells, etc.)

Multiple Endurance: A single housecat will comprise the first round. Every round after that will add an additional cat. All resources (including health) are replenished after every match.

Current Arena Design:
http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/2604/arenafd7.png


So, what needs to change? Will d4 and d6 be the only hp categories this time around? Do we do every die type?

Is the arena too large? Is there another endurance style that needs to be added? Any other additional rules that are critical?

Note: I know I did not specify things like starting gold, hp, and the like. I'm worried about getting the overall idea down first, then specifics will be decided upon. Most likely by me.

[zachol]

There will be no healing in between matches. Other resources are replenished (spells, etc.)What of healing during matches?


What determines how aggressive the cats are?

How effective would animal empathy be?
If one casts calm animals, what would the cat's reaction be at the end of the spell's duration?

At the moment, I'm thinking a cleric would work well for single endurance, and either a druid or a cleave specialist for multiple endurance.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Hmm, healing does pose a problem, as a cleric could effectively never die in single elimination if they play intelligently. To counter this I think the best thing to do would be to change the single elimination to either heal hp (but not other resources) or simply replenish to resources.

These cats will be treated as "trained to kill", so they will actively hunt/stalk you and go for the kill.

Calm Animals would require a save (since I just stated they are trained to kill), but otherwise I think the spell should be allowed. Also changing the single elimination to include no spell replenishment will also help balance spell usage such as this.

Animal Empathy was replaced in 3.5 by the ability called Wild Empathy (druids/rangers). I'd rule that the skill functions exactly like it states, though you'd need to change the cat to indifferent for it to cease its attacking, not just unfriendly.

[Linklegacy77]

Oh, I'm in! Why only d4 or d6? Isn't the purpose to see how long a character can go against cats?

[LuneMoonshadow]

The d4/d6 thing isn't for certain. I was just asking for feedback about that. Obviously the lower the hit die the faster someone dies. It is my goal to kill someone in the first round of combat.

I'm very open to having all hit die represented, though. Having a champion for d4, d6, d8, d10, and even d12 could show the best cat claying builds all-around.

The whole healing/spell replenishing rule is giving me a bit of trouble, though. I honestly think the best way is to change what gets replenished to hp instead of spells. Perhaps a third challenge could also be added (Hardcore, where nothing is replenished?)

[Icebird]

I think that you should jsut ditch the single endurance entierly - even if you replentish nothing, they provoke AOO when they enter your square (which they need to, bein gtiny), which means that they'll almost never get an attack against anyone who's not a wizard.

Make everyone play in the multiple endurance, and replentish everything. It's simplest, and probably best. Let people use any HD they want, in seperate categories.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Hmm, indeed that might be the best way to do it.

Replenishing HP also gives fighters an unfair advantage.

So the "Multiple Endurance" challenge could very well end up being the only endurance challenge.

[zachol]

Hmm...

Single Endurance: A single housecat will be the opponent every round. There will be no healing in between matches. Other resources are replenished (spells, etc.)

Multiple Endurance: A single housecat will comprise the first round. Every round after that will add an additional cat. All resources (including health) are replenished after every match.Do "rounds" equal "matches," and does a "round" not mean a "combat round" but instead a "round of a game"?



I had an idea for a situation where every round (combat round), 2^n cats are added (randomly scattered) to the arena, n being the number of rounds that have passed.
Thus, it would start with one cat, then the next round add two, then four, etc.
The point being that the cats would accumulate if not killed.

Even if a fighter managed to kill ~5 per round (assuming power attack, cleave, and a 14 dex and combat reflexes, for 1 attack, 1 cleave, 3 AoOs), by the 7th round there'd be an excess of 100.
Then the next round, 223. Then 474. Then almost a thousand by the 10th round.
That would be fun.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Yes, in that context it means "challenge round", not "combat round".

The accumulating cats is a good idea, though I suggest doing it by n+1 instead. That will make it easier to distinguish which builds work better (two people dying on round 6, one by running and one by fighting, for example, wouldn't show a distinction).

[LuneMoonshadow]

Housecat Endurance Challenge Rules:

Allowed Books: Players Handbook I & II, Dungeon Master Guide I & II, Monster Manual I,II & III, Complete Arcane, Complete Warrior, Complete Divine, Complete Adventurer, Complete Psionic, Complete Mage, Complete Scoundrel, Deities and Demigods, Heroes of Battle, Heroes of Horror, Libris Mortis, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Races of Destiny, Races of Stone, Races of the Wild, Tome of Battle, Tome of Magic, Unearthed Arcana, Sandstorm, Frostburn, Stormwrack

Level: 1. This prohibits the use of level adjustment races.
Ability Scores: 32 standard point buy
HP: Max initial HP
GP: Maximum possible for the given class

Brackets: Each die type (d4, d6, etc.) will represent an individual bracket of competition.

Items: No custom items may be created for this challenge. Stock items from the approved manuals only.

Victory: The object of this challenge is to survive as many matches as possible. The challenge will begin with a single housecat. Upon a victory a competitor will count as receiving a full night's rest as well as any additional healing that is required. Each additional match that a competitor continues into will consist of one more cat than the additional match possessed. The competitor to survive for the most amount of matches will be declared the winner. In the case of a tie (two or more people survive for the same amount of matches) then the number of combat rounds survived for in that specific match will determine the winner. In the case of a second tie (if they both survived for the same number of combat rounds as well) then all competitors in the tie shall be declared winners.

Cats: These felines count as "trained to kill" and will attack aggressively when given the proper opportunity. For all purposes, stats of each cat will be what is listed in SRD.

Starting Positions: Players start on the left of the arena in the first complete row (B). They may occupy any complete square in that row. Cats will begin on the opposite side in the same manner (S), with their starting position randomly determined by a roll. Should the original row be filled then the next complete row (R) will be utilized for starting positions with the same random positioning determined by dice rolls.

Arena: The arena will be an oval, with the rectangular dimension of 100' x 50'. The ground will be completely uniform and the walls will be 25' high. Exiting the arena (which is the area encompassed by the 100' x 50' x 25' wall) will count as a disqualification. The walls of the arena are hewn stone held together with common mortar and the ground is packed dirt.

http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/2604/arenafd7.png



This is the newest set of rules. Everything needed should be included in there. Let me know if I left anything out. As always, please comment.

[Linklegacy77]

How many times may a player enter?

[LuneMoonshadow]

That depends on how many people want to play. I could see 1 per HD category, though. So for now that will be the tentative ruling. Please note, readers, that I can/will/might/possibly change it. It all depends on how many people show interest.

As of now something like 6-7 people said they want in and it's the weekend, meaning the site has reduced traffic/posting. The coming days will get a better idea of how many the Challenge will have.

[zachol]

I remember you saying "start at level 1" various times.
Does this mean that at some point the contestants will be at a different level, say, 2nd or 3rd?

[LuneMoonshadow]

Not in this challenge. I have thought about it for future challenges, however.

[Icebird]

You didn't mention HD categories in the rules post, but otherwise it looks good to me.

I'm suddenly tempted to make a ranger with an attitude. With scars, constantly telling battle tales about them. "This one here I got in Egypt - they worship their cat's there, and give em' metal claws... little bugger caught me off guard, came around a corner before I could nail 'im..."

[Doomsmile]

What is your policy on items a character could easily make from standard items, but is not listed in any book, such as catnip-scented-stick or javelin-with-retreival-rope?

EDIT: By the way, what is the construction of the walls/ceiling?

[BigRedRod]

Surely it makes more sense for no healing or replenishment between matches?

[LuneMoonshadow]

Surely it makes more sense for no healing or replenishment between matches?

I think without healing that people will all about the same time. The healing rule (I think) will allow different classes to do different things, differentiating the builds a bit.


What is your policy on items a character could easily make from standard items, but is not listed in any book, such as catnip-scented-stick or javelin-with-retreival-rope?

EDIT: By the way, what is the construction of the walls/ceiling?

For simplicty's sake (at least this time around) no on the items that aren't manual listed. With the amount of characters that this challenge may be looking at it would be hell to approve custom items from each one.

No ceiling, it's an open arena. The wall is hewn stone placed together with mortar.

[Chris Chandler]

Okay, this sounds fun and funny, so I'd like to participate.

[Noocytx]

Where do the participants start? Will it be randomized? Do they start on opposite ends? Where would the additional cats be placed to start in later rounds?

[LuneMoonshadow]

Good question.

Participants may start anywhere on the first complete row (row B if you're counting). Cats will start similarly, determined randomly by a roll of the dice. In the instance of multiple cats they will first fill the back row then overflow into the next complete row, positions still randomly decided upon.

[Merbak]

This is me stating that I'd like to join.


I'd like to join.

[omni-roach]

This is me stating that I'd like to join.


I'd like to join.

This is me copying Merbak's bad joke.

I'd like to join.

EDIT:
For simplicty's sake (at least this time around) no on the items that aren't manual listed. With the amount of characters that this challenge may be looking at it would be hell to approve custom items from each one.

So you will be allowing custom items later on? I can't wait to make a real rat flail (similar to the one in my avatar) that actually has a purpose! :)

[Fulmen]

I'm in.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Approximately 9 people have showed interest so far (in this thread, anyway. I'm far too lazy to cross reference this one with the one in Acquisition). Good turn out and only like two days under its belt.



So you will be allowing custom items later on? I can't wait to make a real rat flail (similar to the one in my avatar) that actually has a purpose! :)

As of right now I have no official plans for custom items in challenges. I do plan on running more challenges much like this one. Custom items could possibly be allowed in one such event.

[Fulmen]

What will the ground composition be? Dirt, Grass, Sand, Rock, etc.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Packed dirt. Don't really see the composition making such difference, though I suppose you're the ones who have to think creatively, not me.

I'll be editing in these changes/clarifications in a moment.

Edit: Clarifications put into the second rule post. I also know that there are rules for moving into occupied/incomplete squares. Anyone know where it is?

[Noocytx]

Are you allowed to prepare before a match (cast spells, etc.)? If so, how long before the match are you allowed to prepare.

Do single use items replenish between matches? Or does an archer have to buy as many arrows that he thinks he will use through out the tournament?

[LuneMoonshadow]

Are you allowed to prepare before a match (cast spells, etc.)? If so, how long before the match are you allowed to prepare.

Do single use items replenish between matches? Or does an archer have to buy as many arrows that he thinks he will use through out the tournament?

No preparing before a match.

Ammunition I'll allow to be bought in between matches. Other single-use items (alchemical items, etc) cannot.

[Icebird]

I'd let people re-stock via purchase between matches, but no auto-replentish. That way, he doesn't have to define what replentishes and what doesn't. Is acid single use? Masterwork ammunition? Scrolls? Probably not, but there's a lot of things that would need decisions. Easier to just say no to everything at once.

And allow one round preperation before the cats teleport in. Melee classes don't need it, but it'd be unfair to give spellcasters no time. And unfair to give them too much time, also.

That's just me, though. I'm not running this show. :)

[LuneMoonshadow]

Do keep in mind that these characters are level 1. They can't afford fancy items and their spell selection is very limited. That's one reason why I didn't bother with any pre-match preparation. Does a level 1 Wizard truly need it?

I also think the "you can only restock ammunition" rule should cover things well enough.


Edit: I also am thinking about lowering the point buy down to 28 to be "tougher" instead of the "high powered" 32. I think this will give greater differentiation between individual characters as well, since the points are a more scare commodity. This is challenge is for you guys, though, not me. Would you prefer 32 or 28? Field me your opinions and I'll make a judgment call.

[Fulmen]

As you said, it is a challenge for us. Logically, 28 point buy would prove to be more challenging.

[generaljimX]

I think the restock ammunition only rule is a good idea. I doubt anyone is buying any masterwork weapons, but you may want to limit either no mw ammo, or mw ammo doesn't restock. It is, after all, rather cheap compared to mw a bow...

I think 28 pts would offer a little more customization, and the builds sort of like what you want. You have to really think about where to spend the points. "Do I want to increase the DC of my spells by one, or raise my attacks and AC by one..." Tough decision, but one that will be made more likely with less points. At least, that's my train of thought.

Lastly, I will be participating.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Good point, GeneralJim. I'll go with a no restock of MW ammunition rule.

Less than 48 hours have passed since the acquisition thread has been up and 11 people have already expressed interest, 9 of which outright saying they will play.

My goal will be to have the rules finalized by the end of this week at the latest. Sign-ups will start whenever those get finished.

[omni-roach]

Okay, cool. I'm ready whenever you are. :P

[Doomsmile]

Two more silly questions-
One: how close to sand-like is the packed flooring?
Two: Although masterworked arrows aren't replenished, does the same apply to specialized arrows (such as swift-wing or blunt arrows from Races of the Wild)?

[Icebird]

Speaking for my own wizard, I'll be casting mage armor before every batte if I can have a round of preperation. So yes, 1st level wizards need it - more than higher level ones, I think.

See, there's the first item that needs to be ruled individually. ;)

[Fulmen]

Two more silly questions-
One: how close to sand-like is the packed flooring?
Two: Although masterworked arrows aren't replenished, does the same apply to specialized arrows (such as swift-wing or blunt arrows from Races of the Wild)?

Though I don't speak in official capacity, packed dirt would be pretty hard, nothing like sand. I'm willing to bet your question is regarding a specific race. If so, no their ability will not apply.

[Doomsmile]

Actually, I'm thinking Sand-Blaster from Monster Manual III... NO STEALING!

[Fulmen]

I don't have MM3 so I can't steal it :depry:

[nightinverse]

The MM 3 was the last half-way decent one.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Packed dirt isn't like sand, sorry.

Only standard ammunition will be replenished.

I'll consider the round to prepare.

[Lune]

Do we win money per kitty destroyed? Like 5 silver or something? I assume XP is earned? What about after kitties no longer are sufficient to give XP?

[LuneMoonshadow]

You win the satisfaction of killing a housecat. No money/xp/whatever is earned. That might be an interesting challenge for later, though (the idea that you can level up with enough successes).

[Lune]

Then eventually a ranged fighter will run out of ammo. This is part of the design, I take it?

What of characters that can fly? Are the disallowed?

[LuneMoonshadow]

You may buy ammunition between rounds (standard only), so running out shouldn't be much of an issue so long as the person plans ahead.

How do you intend to have a character fly at level 1? No race comes to mind with that ability.

Edit: I will also be adding more manuals to the allowed list as well as adding some more rulings on items.

[Noocytx]

Are similar builds allowed? It would be kinda pointless if there ended up being four Gnome Illusionists, or have overlapping kinds of classes.
Along the same lines, are similar tactics allowed? Will you allow five wizards to always prepare themselves by casting mage armor before hand?

Is ammunition need to be bought again between rounds, or is it automatically replenished?

Do wizards need to buy more material components during the battles? Or will they eventually run out?

Also, are we trying to develop classes that will be undefeatable. I know of a few builds that would take forever to be beaten, if ever.

[Linklegacy77]

I disagree with it being pointless. They might be all gnome illusionists, but them may all have different feats, spells, and other abilities.

[Noocytx]

After realizing what I typed, I think that's why I went on and mentioned tactics next.

Having the same class over and over wouldn't be bad, as long as they each went about trying to defeat the cats in different ways.

[Lune]

There are plenty of level 1 races that can fly. One of them is presented in races of the wild. ;)

[omni-roach]

If you're wanting to make a good experiment, you have to have somethings stick around between the different groups, so technically, you aren't having the same builds. One Gnome Illusionist may have more hit points than another, while the other has more spells (due to a high int score).

Even if they were the same, as far as the build goes, they could both try different strategies in battle. That way, we could learn how best to survive a cat fight as a Gnome Illusionist, Dwarf Fighter, etc.

[Noocytx]

There are plenty of level 1 races that can fly. One of them is presented in races of the wild. ;)

I'm unsure if you are speaking of Raptorans, just because they are unable to fly until the reach 5 HD.

Even if they were the same, as far as the build goes, but they could both try different strategies in battle. That way, we could learn how best to survive a cat fight as a Gnome Illusionist, Dwarf Fighter, etc.

That's all I really am trying to say I guess. I don't really care if we have 5 builds of the exact same style, as long as the battles differentiate from one another strategy wise. I don't want to look over a battle, and read another battle and be reading the almost exactly same thing. Differing tactics would be the best way to go to complete this challenge I believe.

[Fulmen]

None of the allowed races can fly. The closest is the Shifter (MM3), however the Shifter Trait that allow them to fly is in the Eberron books and not the MM3. Already looked into that :P.

[itches]

I have a question. Are you allowing NPC classes, such as Commoner?

[BigRedRod]

And the dreaded expert.

[Jextur]

I'm in. I call dibs on a Halfling Warlock :) Let the stupidness begin!

[LuneMoonshadow]

Lots questions...

As for similar builds, I couldn't care less. In fact having similar builds might show the best way to kill a cat, though it also might be far less entertaining. "My Evocationist kicked your Abjurer's ass! BAM!"

I won't place any restriction on "similar" builds. If the players have an objection to it they can attempt to resolve it on their own.


As for the ammunition question, it is not replenished automatically. You have to buy more. This means specifying how much in a simple post at the end of round or whatever.

NPC classes: I am actually going to disallow them this time around. This is because I plan on running a challenge of cats vs. NPC classes. So it'd be good if you wait before building that pitchfork wielding farmer. If enough people object to this, however, I will reverse the ruling.

As for flying I don't know of any that can fly. As of right now if you leave the arena (over the 25' wall) you are disqualified. However, I also see flying as a breach of spirit for this challenge. Flying above the reach of the cats is simply no fun to play/DM/watch. Therefore I will disallow flying, even if it's impossible to obtain for this tournament.

I have also made a ruling on the item caltrops (and anything similar). For this challenge they will count as "one time use", so you will have to purchase them for every match. This ruling will be reinforced by participants immediately leaving the arena after the match has concluded. This also means no picking up unbroken ammunition.

[Noocytx]

As for the ammunition question, it is not replenished automatically. You have to buy more. This means specifying how much in a simple post at the end of round or whatever.

The only thing with this is it defeats archers/ranged competitors. What would be the point of buying in between rounds and just buying everything up front.
Ex. An archer buys 2 quivers of arrows and only has 1 gp remaining after everything else bought. What would be the difference between buying 1 more quiver up front and buying it in between rounds.
Also, what happens when a ranged person runs out of arrows? Do they have to resort to whatever else they have at hand?

As for flying I don't know of any that can fly. As of right now if you leave the arena (over the 25' wall) you are disqualified. However, I also see flying as a breach of spirit for this challenge. Flying above the reach of the cats is simply no fun to play/DM/watch. Therefore I will disallow flying, even if it's impossible to obtain for this tournament.

For the same reason, can we disqualify the spider climb spell and all similar effects. The person would be able to cast the spell, walk up the wall, and then release a ranged shot at the cats.
2 examples: Warlock, spider climbs up wall, eldritch blast all day long.
Wizard or Sorcerer, spider climb up wall, sling rocks at cats all day long.

I have also made a ruling on the item caltrops (and anything similar). For this challenge they will count as "one time use", so you will have to purchase them for every match. This ruling will be reinforced by participants immediately leaving the arena after the match has concluded. This also means no picking up unbroken ammunition.

Will this also apply to thrown weapons? Will they be retrievable after the match?

[LuneMoonshadow]

The buying ammunition caveat is there simply for weight allowance. Buying 6 quivers might put you over the limit, but if you carry 2 at a time it won't matter. I don't really see this coming into play, but it is there just in case. And yes, if a ranged character runs out of arrows they are screwed. Part of being ranged.

Spider climb should be disqualified, yes.

To stay fair I think the rule should apply to thrown weapons, though I do admit that severely limits the playability of characters using thrown weapons. I know no other way around it besides a general rule that says "caltrops are one time use and you can't pick up ammunition; thrown weapons are the exception" but that seems rather contrived to me.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Housecat Endurance Challenge Rules:

Character Creation
Allowed Manuals: Players Handbook I & II, Dungeon Master Guide I & II, Monster Manual I,II,III, IV & V, Complete Arcane, Complete Warrior, Complete Divine, Complete Adventurer, Complete Psionic, Complete Mage, Complete Scoundrel, Complete Champion, Deities and Demigods, Planar Handbook, Draconomicon, Heroes of Battle, Heroes of Horror, Libris Mortis, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Races of Destiny, Races of Stone, Races of the Wild, Races of the Dragon, Tome of Battle, Tome of Magic, Unearthed Arcana, Sandstorm, Frostburn, Stormwrack
Note: Any race introduced in a specific setting with feats made specifically for them are eligible for those feats, even if the campaign setting handbook is not on the allowed list.

Level: 1. This prohibits the use of level adjustment races.
Classes: Only PC classes from the approved manuals.
Ability Scores: 28 standard point buy
HP: Max initial HP
GP: Maximum possible for the given class


Arena
Design: The arena will be an oval, with the rectangular dimension of 100' x 50'. The ground will be completely uniform and the walls will be 25' high. The walls of the arena are hewn stone held together with common mortar and the ground is packed dirt.

Starting Positions: Players start on the left of the arena in the first complete row (B). They may occupy any complete square in that row. Cats will begin on the opposite side in the same manner (S), with their starting position randomly determined by a roll. Should the original row be filled then the next complete row (R) will be utilized for starting positions with the same random positioning determined by dice rolls.

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/6126/arenams0.png


Matches
Brackets: Each die type (d4, d6, etc.) will represent an individual bracket of competition.

Items: No custom items may be created for this challenge. Stock items from the approved manuals only. One time use items (which for this challenge will include items of the same nature as caltrops) will be usable only during one match. No items, including unbroken ammunition and thrown weapons still on the arena floor, may be picked up after the match has been completed.

Preparation: One round at the beginning of the match will be allotted for preparation. This round will count as combat, though neither the competitor nor the cats may move at this time. Neither the competitors nor the cats may make any kind of offensive action, including but not limited to readying an action to attack. Both competitors will no longer be flat-footed after the preparation round.

Cats: These felines count as "trained to kill" and will attack aggressively when given the proper opportunity. For all purposes, stats of each cat will be what is listed in SRD.

Victory: The object of this challenge is to survive as many matches as possible. The challenge will begin with a single housecat. Each additional match that a competitor continues into will consist of one more cat than the additional match possessed. The competitor to survive for the most matches will be declared the winner. In the case of a tie (two or more people survive for the same amount of matches) then the number of combat rounds survived for in that specific match will determine the winner. In the case of a second tie (if they both survived for the same number of combat rounds as well) then all competitors in the tie shall be declared winners.

Disqualification: Exiting the arena (which is the area encompassed by the 100' x 50' x 25' wall) will count as a disqualification. Similarly, use of any abilities or spells that grant the ability to either fly or remain off the ground for extended periods of time and out of reach of the cats (spiderclimb, etc.) are violating the spirit of this challenge and are grounds for disqualification. Likewise any build deemed to be in violation of the spirit of the challenge (such as but not limited to high damage reduction) will be acknowledged but summarily disqualified.


Downtime
Replenishment: All competitors will receive a full night’s rest after a victory. Any additional healing that is required will be given at no charge.

Restocking: Only standard ammunition (no special qualities or types) may be purchased at PHB prices between matches. No other items may be purchased at this time, nor may other services.

[LonePaladin]

Two options pretty much make this a moot point.

1. Play a drow, using the option in Unearthed Arcana to start with a penalty to account for the +2 Level Adjustment. Get a plain bow and ordinary arrows, and the Highborn Drow feat from the FRCS. (This lets you levitate 1/day.) Float upward, fire until cats are gone, rest and repeat. Buy more plain arrows as needed to keep up.

2. Play a warforged — the class is irrelevant, but probably a martial type — with the Adamantine Body feat (from Races of Eberron and the main Eberron book). This gives you an AC that cats can only hit on a natural 20, and damage reduction 2/adamantine, which cats can't bypass even on a critical hit. Stand around, let them claw and bite as long as your patience holds, then slaughter them. Clean off and repeat ad nauseum.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Levitation is banned, just so you know.

And breaking a class to be invincible is no fun. It's not in the spirit of the competition so of course characters like that won't be allowed.

You can call it a "moot point" if you wish, but we seem to hold two very different definitions of the word.

[Lune]

Aw, no adamantine bodied warforged then?

Honestly, wasn't the point of the challenge to see if there was a way to make a level 1 character that wasn't susseptable to death by house cat? Because, if so...I agree that its moot if those are the standards.

[LuneMoonshadow]

The point of the challenge is to have fun and laugh at everyone who dies. The challenges forum is more about a lack of seriousness than anything else. It's more about seeing the rules of D&D fall apart at the seems in certain places (like a housecat killing a wizard).

If it looks to be that people are doing more for the reason of getting really far in the tournament I'll just restrict the available materials to the core books. The other manuals are there for people to try exotic things, not to break the challenge.

This is an exercise in entertainment, not powergaming.

[Lune]

I misunderstood the goal. I thought it was to see the rules of D&D fall apart. My point is that you can abuse the rules offered to allow a character to overcome any challenge. PunPun, the Hulking Hurler throwing a meteor and other builds are all examples of this. Even at first level your challenge could be made moot. I predict you will run into many things that will have to get banned before this starts to run it the way you wish.

But I believe I will be enjoying this one from the audience and laughing at everyone who dies to a housecat as you say. ;)

[LuneMoonshadow]

I'm hoping that players are mature enough to respect the spirit of the challenge. If not, then I'll simply restrict the allowable sources.

Using the very same logic everything can be made moot. Hell, why do we even play D&D? The whole system is moot since it can be broken. My point here is that just because you can do something to break the system doesn't mean the system itself worthless.

So, powergamers, stay away.

Other people, give me your feedback on the newest edition of the rules and see if anything needs to be added/changed. If no one can point out anything fundamentally wrong with them I'll move to make a sign-up thread at the end of this week/beginning of next.

[Noocytx]

While I do like the the idea of being able to prepare oneself before hand, I'm not sure if it is the best thing.

The only reason I say this is because it gives the person a further advantage over the cats as the cats are unable to do anything during that round.

[LuneMoonshadow]

One reason I included it was because it got rid of the flat-footed state of the cats. In effect this ensures their AC is always 14.

[Lune]

I don't wanna derail the thread here, but I think that your goal of "seeing the rules of D&D fall apart at the seems in certain places (like a housecat killing a wizard)." encourages powergamers.

[SlagMortar]

Personally, I find it pretty interesting that there are first level builds that are immune to death by house cat (like the warforged). It is worth posting those ideas, even if it is not worth actually playing out the rounds. It doesn't make the challenge pointless. There's still the goal of seeing who can get the farthest with a non-warforged, who can get the farthest with a gnome illusionist, who can get the farthest with a kobold, etc.

[LuneMoonshadow]

That very well maybe the fact, Lune. Of course others in the thread have posted very non-powergamer type builds so I believe the spirit of the challenge is fairly well understood and respected.

Either way everyone should keep in mind that this both my first tournament/challenge and the site's first challenge. The rules don't have to be perfect (and they won't be). They need to be as good as we can get them so we may see how they work in an actual play environment. This is essentially a test to see how things go.

If something isn't right this time, it can be fixed on the next go-around.

[Doomsmile]

If a character has the relevant craft skill, would one be allowed to assume the character made a specific item (such as armor) themselves from scratch, assuming the character could take 10 on the check to build it and succeed?

EDIT: I think I remember seeing a "Shield Focus" feat or something similar in Player's Handbook II, but failed to copy it anywhere. Anyone remember the specifics of it? If so, my tin can will thank you.

[Chris Chandler]

See... here I was thinking of how I could keep a trip fighter alive, but this discussion has got me changing my mind. Now I would much rather be silly.

Adamantine chassis Warforged, indeed.

[LuneMoonshadow]

If a character has the relevant craft skill, would one be allowed to assume the character made a specific item (such as armor) themselves from scratch, assuming the character could take 10 on the check to build it and succeed?

EDIT: I think I remember seeing a "Shield Focus" feat or something similar in Player's Handbook II, but failed to copy it anywhere. Anyone remember the specifics of it? If so, my tin can will thank you.
For simplicity, crafting items will not be allowed in this challenge.

Shield Focus isn't in the PHB II, though there are several shield feats. Shield Specialization (+1 shield bonus), Agile Shield Fighter, Shield Sling, Shield Ward.

Any of those ring a bell?


Now I would much rather be silly.
I approve.

[Linklegacy77]

Simple, restrict the race options to core races.

That allows the additional resources, allows for exotic class choices and feats etc., but doesn't allow anything like the warforged adamantium body or the LA+0 Drow.

[Fulmen]

But there are some interesting non-core race options that don't break the spirit of the contest. It's not too hard to just say No Warforged Adamatium Body and no Drow.

[zachol]

Or simply acknowledge that such a build would automatically win, give whoever first thought it up a cookie, and trust that no-one will enter such a thing in the actual contest.


I mean, there's no reason to waste time running a combat between a cat and something with DR.

Perhaps the rule (if there is one) should be that any build which can be shown to be impossible to beat with a cat (has DR that the cat can't bypass, for example) to be disqualified, with the creator being given a cookie.

[BigRedRod]

zachol speaks with great wisdom, we can do both things here, break rules and fight the endless hordes of Jumbo the Cat God.

[Doomsmile]

Shield Focus isn't in the PHB II, though there are several shield feats. Shield Specialization (+1 shield bonus), Agile Shield Fighter, Shield Sling, Shield Ward.

Any of those ring a bell?
Shield Specialization is the feat I was thinking of. What are the pre-requisites and can it apply to tower shields?

[LuneMoonshadow]

Shield Specialization is the feat I was thinking of. What are the pre-requisites and can it apply to tower shields?

Prereq: Proficiency with shields
Benefit: Choose either buckler, light, or heavy and gain a +1 shield bonus to that specific type.
Special: It can be gained multiple times, no stacking. Fighters can use it as their bonus.


Perhaps the rule (if there is one) should be that any build which can be shown to be impossible to beat with a cat (has DR that the cat can't bypass, for example) to be disqualified, with the creator being given a cookie.

I was hoping no ruling would be needed, though I suppose making it official would help.

[BigRedRod]

It's the temptation of those trophies that does it.

[omni-roach]

A prize makes people go nuts. Why do you think the radio is still around? It has more to do than the fact that you can find one in every car these days. :)

[Doomsmile]

Is lamp oil conidered mundane ammunition?

[Jextur]

So when are we starting this?

And can we enter more than one contestant? I'd really like to try a few different builds for this.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Is lamp oil conidered mundane ammunition?

No. "Standard Ammunition" means things like normal arrows, shurikens, normal bolts, etc.


So when are we starting this?

And can we enter more than one contestant? I'd really like to try a few different builds for this.

Sign-ups will be the end of this week/beginning of next. As of now you can enter one character per HD bracket.

[Jextur]

Preparation: One round at the beginning of the match will be allotted for preparation. This round will count as combat, though neither the competitor nor the cats may move at this time. Both competitors will no longer be flat-footed after the preparation round.


Just to clarify a bit here, will this be like the wizard duels where you can't do anything offensive during the pre-round? Or can we use the round to take a shot at the cats if we have the ability to do so? (i.e. arrows, magic missiles, etc).

Q2 - do you have to actually kill the cats or just incapacitate them? (i.e. Color Spray, Sleep, Calm Animals, Entangle, etc)

Q3 - are these kittens or full grown cats? (stupid question...I think not! - Mage Hand would be strong enough to lift a kitten into the air and throw it out of the ring).

Q4 - will there be any obstacles or structures in the ring, or is it just one big open space?

[LuneMoonshadow]

Just to clarify a bit here, will this be like the wizard duels where you can't do anything offensive during the pre-round? Or can we use the round to take a shot at the cats if we have the ability to do so? (i.e. arrows, magic missiles, etc).

Q2 - do you have to actually kill the cats or just incapacitate them?

Q3 - are these kittens or full grown cats? (stupid question...I think not! - Mage Hand would be strong enough to lift a kitten into the air and throw a cat out of the ring).

Q4 - will there be any obstacles or structures in the ring, or is it just one big open space?

You may not attack during this round. It is for preparation only. Thank you for pointing that out. I will edit in a more accurate description accordingly.

You must kill the cats. Blood must be shed. For this... is Sparta.

They are housecats. Kittens would kill a level 1 character with but a single glance. To make this challenge fair we went with full grown cats.

No obstacles. Just you and the cat.

[zachol]

For the calm animals spell... if we calm a bunch of them, so they're all sort of just standing around, and then start killing the cats one by one, do the other ones snap out of it, or do they just patiently wait for their turn?

[LuneMoonshadow]

An attack on one will break the enchantment on all of them.

"Any threat breaks the spell on the threatened creatures."

Note the plural 'creatures'.

[omni-roach]

Well, the spell is called "calm animals." Note the plural 'animals.'

[zachol]

Well, the.. p... shl... the... um....



No you shut up!

[nightinverse]

However, you might bind the animals or herd them into a convenient area? Hurm...

Abjurer still is my scheme here.

[LonePaladin]

I'm starting to wonder how long a warlock would last. Give 'im a chain shirt, no weapons (he really doesn't need one), fight defensively, and he'll still have a good chance of taking out one a round, with a better-than-average chance of not getting hit. Eventually, he'd fall, but he'd probably end up with a really good body-count.

Any respectable warlock would forbid the facilitators to clean up the arena between rounds. After all, if he's piling up cat-corpses, he'd want to see some actual piles accumulating.

Give him the soulreaving aura invocation (from Complete Mage) and he can start drawing temporary hit points from all those disabled or dying cats within 10 feet of him; make it summon swarm instead, and he can get an area-effect that gives free damage (as well as the distraction that swarms cause).

Might be worth making up and playing through, just to see how many he can take out before they eventually overpower him. I'd bet he'd get up to about fifteen to twenty before they prove too much for him to slaughter.

[Linklegacy77]

Any character with the feat from Savage Species would be invulnerable. It grants DR 2/-. I think the prereqs were Con 15 or something like that.

Do I get a cookie now?

[Doomsmile]

I think Thick-Skinned requires you to already have DR, so it can increase it by 2 points, but it's been a while since I've looked into that book.

[zachol]

Things without DR actually have DR 0, just as things without a natural armor bonus actually have a natural armor bonus of +0.


Unless the feat explicitly states that it requires DR, then it should be able to give someone without DR some amount, even if the wording is "improves the creature's DR by 2" or some other such thing.




Yes, cookie for Link.

[LuneMoonshadow]

I don't think Savage Species is 3.5, though. Isn't it 3.0?

There are ways of getting DR all over the place, though. Armor Specialization from the PHB 2 is one such way, though I don't think anyone would be able to afford the masterwork armor.

Edit: If no one points out anything missing/wrong with the rules by tonight I will be posting a sign-up thread.

[BigRedRod]

Savage Species was the first 3.5 book IIRC.

[Chris Chandler]

It was 3.334

[Linklegacy77]

Any material that wasn't updated is considered Kosher for 3.5.