Revision Discussion

[Black Plauge]

So, I've come to the conclusion that the reasons my first Dünya campaign failed on my end is because:
I tried to incorporate too much into the game. I didn't want to ban anything that wasn't obviously unbalanced. This lead to serious bloat to the campaign setting that my detail oriented mind just couldn't let go of.
I didn't have a really firm picture of what the CS was supposed to be about in the general sense. This made the aquisition and insertion of new ideas difficult because I would often try to incorporate every single idea I had.
I also didn't have a firm enough grasp on the campaign itself, and was left holding the bag every time my players did something unexpected. This lead to frustration and poor planning on my part.

So, what I want to do now is correct those problems as much as possible before trying to run another game in the setting. In particular, I'm focusing on the first two right now. I figure once I get a solid handle on those two, then I'll be better able to actually plan and then run a proper campaign.

If you've found this thread, then you're welcome to help me out. In fact, when it comes time to recruit players for this campaign, I'm going to favor those who spend some time here helping me out.

To start, I've written the following as a synopsis of some of the ideas I want to incorporate into Dünya:Banned Classes: Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Sorcerer, Wizard, all other classes which use magic in the sense presented in the PHB (except those on the modified list)

Modified Classes: Bard, Ranger

Characters:
All races have at least 1 racial HD, most have 3. These racial HD are used to represent childhood. If the race has 3 or fewer HD, they award feats, skill points, BAB, etc. as normal for a higher level character (not a first level character). A character’s first class level gets the normal first level benefits (max HD, 4x skill points, etc.). If the race has 4 or more HD, the normal first level benefits are applied to one of their racial HD. Races which are published with a starting ECL of less than 3 (like the PHB races) are modified upwards to meet these guidelines. Some races with a starting ECL of greater than 3 are modified downwards to meet these guidelines.

Characters gain feats at every odd HD (as opposed to level 1 and every 3rd HD).

NPC adults range in level from 1st to 7th. Higher level NPC adults are more likely to be older and found in terrain where making a living is generally harder (swamps, aquiatic, etc.) or where competition for living space does the same thing (larger cities).

Equipment:
There are no magic items of any kind.

All equipment comes in 5 grades: Apprentice, Quality, Expert, Master, and Grand Master. The stats listed in the PHB (or other place where equipment is first introduced) are for Quality grade. What is referred to as “masterwork” in the PHB (and elsewhere) corresponds to Expert grade. Apprentice grade is cheaper and of lower quality than Quality grade. Master and Grand Master are more expensive and of higher quality than Expert grade. More details on this system can be found under the Craft rules.

Some specialty items (like alchemical items) exist only in one grade. This is already reflected in their listed prices and creation DCs.

Magic:
Magic, as presented in the PHB, does not exist. The term “magic” is used to refer collectively to psionics, incarnum, and martial disciplines. These may also be referred to as mind, spirit, or body magic, respectively.

Creatures which cast spells like a banned class (such as dragons casting spells as sorcerers) lose this ability and instead gain the magical abilities in one of the existing types of magic. The exact type that they gain varies from creature to creature.

Creatures with spell-like abilities lose these abilities, gaining instead the closest approximation available in one of the existing branches of magic. If no approximation exists, they may instead gain another ability appropriate to the creature.

Classes and feats which grant spell-like abilities are banned.

Religion:
Lacking traditional D&D divine magic, and because a practicioner of any of the three types of magic need not have any relation to a god, religion fills a role in the life of the campaign setting similar to what one would expect to find in the real world. For some it’s a quaint tradition, to others a regretable (or necessary) mistake of our ancestors, and to still others, the most important thing in their life. The reality of magic means that the spread of attitudes amongst the populace is more like that of modern day Earth rather than medieval Europe (despite the tech level of the setting).
I've also started to revise the contents of the House Rules & World Info (http://online-roleplaying.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=888) forum to match up with this synopsis.

So, what can you do?

Well, you can provide feedback on what's posted in the House Rules & World Info forum. Did I miss something? Did I make a mistake? Is something I made unbalanced?

You can also make suggestions about how things should be done. Some of what's posted in House Rules & World Info is just a list of things that need to be done. If you have an idea for how a particular task might be accomplished, you can post it here for discussion.

[Linklegacy77]

I'd like to help out.

I was looking through the equipment thread, and I noticed something that struck me as strange. The long-barrel air guns seem significantly superior to the short-barrel versions, yet they are all cheaper...

For spellthiefs, I would simply remove the ability to steal spells, and give them the psithief feat for free. Replace their spellcasting with psionic manifesting as well. In fact, I think I'll take a look at that later and see how I would do a rewrite of it for psionics instead of spells.

[Noocytx]

I think this is a very interesting concept and would like to try to help out if possible.

I noticed that you said you would like to alter the assassin to the new world, and I wasn't sure if you were looking for a simple fix like the psychic assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) or if you were looking at trying to do away with any casting at all and revert back to something that relies on pure skill of self.

Also, would you introduce the psychic rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) to the world as they seem like they could make a place for themselves as well.

[Black Plauge]

I was looking through the equipment thread, and I noticed something that struck me as strange. The long-barrel air guns seem significantly superior to the short-barrel versions, yet they are all cheaper...
I wasn't really considering balance when I priced the short-barrel guns cheaper than the long barreled ones, but rather the fact that it's technically more complicated to put the mechanisms into a smaller package (especially for the internal resivoir style guns). I suppose, however, that balance is really a much more important consideration when considering the price in a game context.

One thing I do note that I forgot is to restrict long-barrel guns from being used while mounted. Long-barrel's are supposed to be about 5' to 6' in length, making them a less than ideal calvary weapon. Given the frequency of mounted combat in a typical campaign, I doubt that this is enough to correct the balance problem, however.

For spellthiefs, I would simply remove the ability to steal spells, and give them the psithief feat for free.
I've not seen that feat. Where might I find it?

I noticed that you said you would like to alter the assassin to the new world, and I wasn't sure if you were looking for a simple fix like the psychic assassin or if you were looking at trying to do away with any casting at all and revert back to something that relies on pure skill of self.
I hadn't arrived at any decision regarding that. All I knew is that the spells had to go. The psychic assassin that you linked looks like it might be a workable substitution, my only concern is that the class balance already leans heavily towards psionics. With both the XPH and CP to draw on, psionic characters have many more class options than incarnum and martial discipline characters. If every partial spellcasting class gets converted to use psionics, this problem only becomes worse.

Also, would you introduce the psychic rogue to the world as they seem like they could make a place for themselves as well.
Although I like and will probably use most of the stuff published on the WotC website that is compatible with the basic premises of this CS, this is one I probably won't. I think the Lurk fits this niche better and at the same time is more differentiated from the rogue.

[Noocytx]

According to wizards.com, the psitheif feat can be found in Complete Scoundrel, but I can't verify that right now since I don't have my books to look at.

Psionics has the most options to it, hands down. I understand why trying not to just change everything over to it. The assassin would probably work better in the world either as a pure skill (no casting of any kind) or maybe some sort of martial discipline character. I will try to look some of that over and see what I can figure out.

Another question, exactly what are you looking into doing for racial hit dice for the races in the PHB. You looking to do something like the Racial Paragon Classes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm) found in Unearthed Arcana? Something more or less complex?

[Linklegacy77]

Psithief is in the Complete Scoundrel.

I'll take some time and rewrite the Spellthief to be a Psithief sometime, and you can edit it if you want to.

[Black Plauge]

The Racial Paragon Classes are usually where I start when beefing up races (if they exist), and that's why there are character creation blocks for some races without cultural write-ups (those character creation blocks are a condensed form of the benefits of the racial paragon classes plus the normal racial traits). I change some things where the racial description is significantly different (like which skills get bonuses) and where the fact that the levels are necessarily coming before any class levels is a problem (like the spellcasting benefits).

Which reminds me, several of the races have spellcasting benefits that need to be fixed. I should also look at Favored Classes.

[Linklegacy77]

(NOTE: I realize that you have a houserule regarding trapfinding, but I kept it in so this class would be usable to other games as well)

Psithief:

d6 hit die
3/4 BAB
Good Will Save
Poor Ref, Poor Fort

Skill points: 6+int modifier (x4 at level 1)
Class Skills: Appraise, autohypnosis, bluff, concentration, craft, decipher script, disable device, escape artist, gather information, hide, jump, knowledge (psionics), knowledge (local), listen, move silently, open lock, search, speak language, psicraft, spot, swim, tumble, use psionic device

Power Points per day/ Powers Known/ Maximum Power Level Known
1. -/-/-
2. -/-/-
3. 0/1/1
4. 1/1/1
5. 2/2/1
6. 4/2/1
7. 6/3/2
8. 9/3/2
9. 12/4/2
10. 16/4/2
11. 20/5/3
12. 25/5/3
13. 30/6/3
14. 36/6/3
15. 42/7/4
16. 49/7/4
17. 56/8/4
18. 64/8/4
19. 72/8/4
20. 81/8/4

Special:
1. Sneak Attack +1d6, Steal Power (1st), Trapfinding
2. Detect Psionics, Psigrace +1, Steal Power Effect
3. Steal Energy Resistance 10
4. Steal Power (2nd)
5. Sneak Attack +2d6, Steal Psi-like ability
6. Steal Power (3rd)
7. Absorb Power
8. Steal Power (4th)
9. Psionic Sight
10. Steal Power (5th)
11. Psigrace +2, Steal energy resistance 20
12. Steal Power (6th)
13. Discover Powers, Sneak Attack +4d6
14. Steal Power (7th)
15. Steal Power Resistance
16. Steal Power (8th)
17. Sneak Attack +5d6
18. Steal Power (9th)
19. Steal Energy Resistance 30
20. Absorb Power (Immediate Manifesting), Psigrace +3

Steal Power (Su): A Psithief can siphon psionic energy away from his targer and use it himself. A Psithief who hits an opponent with a successful sneak attack can choose to forgo dealing 1d6 points of sneak attack damage and instead steal a power, or the potential to manifest a specific known power, from his target. If the target is willing, a Psithief can steal a power with a touch as a standard action.
The target of a steal power attack loses one 1st level power known for one minute. You also steal 2 power points from the victim, up to it's manifester level. (If it is a first level psion, you only steal 1 power point). A Psithief can choose which power to steal, otherwise, the DM determines the stolen power randomly. If a Psithief tries to steal a power that isn't available, the stolen power is determined randomly from among those that the target has available.
After stealing a power, a Psithief can manifest the power himself on a subsequent turn. Add the power stolen to the Psithief's powers known for one hour, during which he can manifest the power normally. Remove the power from the target's powers known list for one hour as well. The power points stolen may be used to power any ability the Psithief has that requires power points. They must be used within one minute, or they are lost. A psithief may manifest this power even if he doesn't have the necessary ability score to manifest the power. As the Psithief gains levels, he can choose to steal higher-level powers, as shown on the chart. At 4th level, he can steal 2nd level powers, and every two levels after, the level of power he can steal increases by 1. When the Psithief uses his steal power ability, the amount of power points stolen are 2*the level of the power stolen, but still can't be above the manifester level of the target. For example, a 6th level Psithief uses his steal power ability against a 7th level wilder. He steals the Dispel Psionics power, a 3rd level power, and steals 6 power points. Keep in mind that you cannot steal more power points than the target currently has available. A target who has power points stolen loses those power points.
At any one time, the psithief may only possess a total number of stolen power levels equal to his class level or lower.

Sneak Attack (Ex): See the rogue ability of the same name, PHB p. 50.

Trapfinding (Ex): See the rogue ability of the same name, PHB p. 50.

Detect Psionics (Ps): A Psithief of 2nd level or higher can use Detect Psionics a number of times per day equal to his charisma bonus (minimum 1). His manifester level equals his Psithief level.

Psigrace (Su): A Psithief of 2nd level or higher gains a +1 competence bonus on his saves against powers. This bonus improves to +2 a 11th level and +3 at 20th level.

Steal Power Effect (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a Psithief can siphon an active power effect from another creature. A Psithief who hits an opponent with a sneak attack can choose to forgo dealing 1d6 points of sneak attack damage and instead gain the effect of a single power affecting the target. If the target is willing, a Psithief can steal a power with a touch as a standard action. The Psithief can choose which power effect to steal; otherwise, the DM determines the stolen power effect randomly. If a Psithief tries to steal a power effect that isn't present, the stolen power effect is determined randomly from among those currently in effect on the target. A Psithief can't steal a power effect if it's manifester level exceeds his class level + his charisma modifier.
Upon stealing a power effect, a Psithief gains the stolen effect (and the original creature loses that effect) for 1 minute per class level (or until the power's duration expires, whichever comes first). If the power effect's duration hasn't expired by this time, the power effect returns to the creature that was the original target of it. A Psithief can steal the effect only if he would have been a legal target for the original manifesting of the power. If the Psithief steals such a power, the power is suppresed for the normal time (1 minute per class level), but the Psithief does not gain the effects. This ability does not work on effects that are immune to dispel psionics.

Steal Energy Resistance (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a Psithief can siphon off some or all of the target's resistance to an energy type (acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic). A Psithief who hits an opponent with a successful sneak attack can choose to forgo dealing 1d6 points of sneak attack damage and instead gain energy resistance 10 to an energy type of which the target is resistant (or immune). If the target is willing, the Psithief can steal energy resistance with a touch as a standard action. Simultaneously, the targets resistance is reduced by 10 (a creature with immunity retains it's immunity) to a minimum of 0. If the target has more than one type of energy resistance, the psithief may choose which type to steal, otherwise, the DM randomly selects which is stolen. If the type chosen to be stolen is not possessed by the target, the type stolen is determined randomly. The resistance from this ability is retained for 1 minute. If the stolen resistance is derived from a power or other temporary effect, the resistance vanishes when the effect expires. A spellthief can use this ability multiple times, but it's effects do not stack. It either applies to different type of energy, or replaces the older effects duration. (You can't steal fire resistance from a target twice to gain twice as much or reduce the targets twice as much). At 11th level, a psithief can steal energy resistance 20, and can steal energy resistance 30 at level 19.

Powers: Beginning at 4th level, hte psithief gains the ability to manifest a small number of powers, which are drawn from the psithief power list (see below). He may manifest any power he knows without preparation. To learn or manifest a power, the psithief must have a charisma score equal to at least 10+the power level. The DC for a saving throw against a Psithief's power is 10+power level+the psithief's cha modifier.

The psithief's manifester level is equal to 1/2 his class level.

Steal Psi-like ability (Su): At 5th level and higher, a psithief can use a sneak attack to temporarily steal a creature's psi-like ability. A psithief who hits an opponent with a sneak attack can choose to forgo dealing 1d6 points of sneak attack damage and instead gain one use of one of the target's psi-like abilities. If the target is willing, the psithief can steal a psi-like ability with a touch as a standard action.
This psi-like ability can originate from the target's class, race, template, or any other source, and can be of any level up to a maximum of one-third the psithief's class level. A psithief can select a psi-like ability to steal, otherwise it is randomly selected by the DM. If the target does not have the selected psi-like ability, one is randomly selected by the DM. If the psi-like ability has a limited number of uses per day, there must be one use remaining or the psi-like ability can't be stolen. If the target can't use the ability at the current time, it can't be stolen. A psithief can use a stolen psi-like ability once. For all purposes (manifester level, save DC, and so on), treat the psi-like ability as if it were being used by the original possesser of the ability. A Psithief must use the stolen psi-like ability within one minute of stealing it, or lose it. Until the psithief uses the ability, or one minute expires, the target cannot use the ability.

Absorb Power (Su): Beginning at 7th level, if a psithief makes a successful save against a power that targets him, he can attempt to absorb the power energy for later use. This ability affects only powers that have the psithief as a target, not area powers. A psithief can't absorb a power with a higher level than one he can steal with his steal power ability.
To absorb a power that targets him, a psithief must succeed on a level check (1d20+psithief class level) against a DC of 10+the power's manifester level. Failure indicates that the power has it's normal effect on a successful save. Success means that the psithief suffers no effect from the power, and gains a number of power points equal to the number of power points put into the power.

Psionic Sight (Ps): Beginning at 9th level, a psithief can see the psionic powers of creatures around him. He may use this ability a number of times per day as a swift action equal to his charisma modifier (minimum of 1).
When you activate this ability, you know the location and strength of all psionic auras within your sight. An aura's strength depends on a power's functioning level or an item's manifester level, as noted in the description of detect psionics. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make a psicraft check to determine the discipline of power involved in each. (Make one check per aura, DC 15+power level, or 15+one half manifester level for a non-power effect).
If you concentrate on a specific creature within 120 feet of you as a standard action, you can determine whether it has any manifesting or psi-like abilities, and the strength of the most power power or psi-like ability the creature currently has available to use.
This ability lasts for 1 minute per class level.

Discover Powers (Ex): A psithief of 13th level or higher who steals a power from a spellcaster with his steal power ability automatically learns the names of all other powers known by the manifester that are of the same power level of the stolen power. This knowledge allows the psithief to better choose which powers to steal on subsequent attacks.

Steal Power Resistance (Su): Beginning at 15th level, a psithief can use a sneak attaack to temporarily steal some or all of a targets power resistance. A psithief who hits a target with a successful sneak attack can forgo 3d6 sneak attack damage an instead reduce the targets power resistance by 5. The psithief also gains power resistance equal to 5+his class level (up to a maximum value of the target's original power resistance). If the target is willing, the psithief can steal power resistance with a touch as a standard action.
The stolen power resistance benefits the psithief for a number of rounds equal to the psithief's charisma modifier (minimum 1 round) and then returns to the target creature. If the power resistance is derived from a temporary effect, then the psithief loses the benefit when the duration expires. A psithief can't use this ability again on the same creature until the power resistance has been returned.

Psithief Power List:

level 1-
Attraction
Bolt
Catfall
Conceal thoughts
control light
create sound
detect psionics
distract
eidetic lock
empathy
far hand
know direction and location
missive
telempathic projection

2nd level-
body equilibrium
could mind
concealing amorpha
control sound
detect hostile intent
elfsight
feat leech
identify, psionic
knock, psionic
levitate, psionic
missive, mass
psionic lock

3rd level-
danger sense
darkvision, psionic
psychic containment
realized potential
telekinetic force
touchsight
ubiquitous vision

4th level-
aura sight
correspond
dimenision door, psionic
freedom of movement, psionic
power leech
suggestion, implanted

[Linklegacy77]

So what do you think? How should it be changed?

[Black Plauge]

I haven't had a chance to look yet. I have a conference this weekend at which I'm giving a talk and I've been preparing for that. I'll probably get to look at it on Sunday.

[Linklegacy77]

Characters:
All races have at least 1 racial HD, most have 3. These racial HD are used to represent childhood. If the race has 3 or fewer HD, they award feats, skill points, BAB, etc. as normal for a higher level character (not a first level character). A character’s first class level gets the normal first level benefits (max HD, 4x skill points, etc.). If the race has 4 or more HD, the normal first level benefits are applied to one of their racial HD. Races which are published with a starting ECL of less than 3 (like the PHB races) are modified upwards to meet these guidelines. Some races with a starting ECL of greater than 3 are modified downwards to meet these guidelines.

I find this to be a little strange. It seems kind of like it will just weaken all the characters, especially in relation to monsters. I always thought that the first class level represented all your childhood workings up to the point where you gained it.

NPC adults range in level from 1st to 7th. Higher level NPC adults are more likely to be older and found in terrain where making a living is generally harder (swamps, aquiatic, etc.) or where competition for living space does the same thing (larger cities).

Does this mean that every adult in the world has PC class levels?

Religion:
Lacking traditional D&D divine magic, and because a practicioner of any of the three types of magic need not have any relation to a god, religion fills a role in the life of the campaign setting similar to what one would expect to find in the real world. For some it’s a quaint tradition, to others a regretable (or necessary) mistake of our ancestors, and to still others, the most important thing in their life. The reality of magic means that the spread of attitudes amongst the populace is more like that of modern day Earth rather than medieval Europe (despite the tech level of the setting).

Religion still holds some value, especially to Divine Minds and Crusaders, right?

[Black Plauge]

I find this to be a little strange. It seems kind of like it will just weaken all the characters, especially in relation to monsters. I always thought that the first class level represented all your childhood workings up to the point where you gained it.
Compared to monsters without class levels who are usually defeated by magic, yes, characters are weaker. However, those are also the monsters which are prime candidates for being modified or having their CR changed significantly.
Against monsters who are primarily defeated through force of arms, the characters aren't any weaker, or at least only marginally so, because they do get hp and BAB from those racial HD.
More importantly, however, this modification makes magical characters of exotic races more practical. When was the last time you saw a player make a primary spellcaster from a race with racial HD or LA? It is generally accepted that doing so is a major no-no because it delays the achievement of new levels of spells and lowers caster level (though the later can be overcome to some degree with Practiced Spellcaster). Now, while I'm eliminating traditional magic, the same principle holds true for psionics, incarnum, and martial disciplines, albeit to a far lesser extent. I want to see players playing Githzerai Psions, and Lizardfolk Incarnates. Such class race combinations, however, are handicapped under the normal system.
Also, the "extras" you get at first level are usually only used for adventurer oriented stuff. Sure you get 4x skills, but if you don't use that to max out the skills you're going to be using, then you're shooting yourself in the foot. I'm hoping that the extra skill points (along with a dramatically different skill list) will encourage characters to have that point in Craft (leatherworking) because they're the son of a tanner or Knowledge (religion) because they were raised in a religious orphanage.
On top of that, I'm considering having these racaial HD and LA not count when it comes to determining things like max skill ranks, XP needed to level, etc.

Does this mean that every adult in the world has PC class levels?
No. Most will have NPC class levels just like in most campaign settings.

Religion still holds some value, especially to Divine Minds and Crusaders, right?
As an organization or a community or set of beliefs or source of temporal power, yes. As a source of magical power, no. For classes that can lose powers based on violation of religious tennents (I can't remember if Divine Minds and Crusaders fall under this category off the top of my head), the loss of powers is a psychosomatic symptom of their guilt (i.e. at some level, even if only subconciously, they know what they did was wrong according to their beliefs and they "deserve" to lose their "god given blessings" for it). Some religious organizations even go so far as to speficially train for this effect through use of powers like aversion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/aversion.htm).

[Black Plauge]

Psithief comments:
Why does the number of powers known hold at 3 for an extra level, only to go from reduce the number of levels at 4 to 1 (instead of the normal 2)?

How is a target's ability to manifest a power affected by the psithief stealing that power? You cover PP, but not the power itself.

The ability to change out powers is unusual for a psionic class. Why did you decide to include it?

I need to check the power list later when I can look at the spellthief spell list.

[Linklegacy77]

Why does the number of powers known hold at 3 for an extra level, only to go from reduce the number of levels at 4 to 1 (instead of the normal 2)?

So that he will know 2 of each power level. I based the levels of powers off the Spellthief.


After stealing a power, a Psithief can manifest the power himself on a subsequent turn. Add the power stolen to the Psithief's powers known for one hour, during which he can manifest the power normally. Remove the power from the target's powers known list for one hour as well. The power points stolen may be used to power any ability the Psithief has that requires power points.

The ability to change out powers is unusual for a psionic class. Why did you decide to include it?

Because the spellthief normally gets that ability.

[Black Plauge]

As I look at it, the psithief will have the opportunity to learn 2 1st-level, 1 2nd-level, 2 3rd-level, & 3 4th level powers. If you meant for it to be 2 at each level, then the max power level known needs to grow a little slower.

Because the spellthief normally gets that ability.
If that's the only reason, then I'd remove it. It's needed for spellcasters with a set list of spells known because spells are fairly static (why have SMI when you can have SMV or higher), but psionic powers can be augmented so it's not really needed.

I like the power list. I especially like that you considered the CP powers too.

And I don't know how I missed that part of the Steal Power ability. Must not have been reading very closely this morning.

[Linklegacy77]

As I look at it, the psithief will have the opportunity to learn 2 1st-level, 1 2nd-level, 2 3rd-level, & 3 4th level powers. If you meant for it to be 2 at each level, then the max power level known needs to grow a little slower.


Edited

I like the power list. I especially like that you considered the CP powers too.

Thanks

If that's the only reason, then I'd remove it. It's needed for spellcasters with a set list of spells known because spells are fairly static (why have SMI when you can have SMV or higher), but psionic powers can be augmented so it's not really needed.


Agreed.

[Linklegacy77]

Compared to monsters without class levels who are usually defeated by magic, yes, characters are weaker. However, those are also the monsters which are prime candidates for being modified or having their CR changed significantly.
Against monsters who are primarily defeated through force of arms, the characters aren't any weaker, or at least only marginally so, because they do get hp and BAB from those racial HD.

They generally get a worse BAB or hit die, and no class features. If they would not have gotten a better BAB or hit die, then they lose significant casting.


More importantly, however, this modification makes magical characters of exotic races more practical. When was the last time you saw a player make a primary spellcaster from a race with racial HD or LA? It is generally accepted that doing so is a major no-no because it delays the achievement of new levels of spells and lowers caster level (though the later can be overcome to some degree with Practiced Spellcaster). Now, while I'm eliminating traditional magic, the same principle holds true for psionics, incarnum, and martial disciplines, albeit to a far lesser extent. I want to see players playing Githzerai Psions, and Lizardfolk Incarnates. Such class race combinations, however, are handicapped under the normal system.

Doesn't it make it less likely for players to play a phb race though? This encourages special races, but penalizes non-special races.


Also, the "extras" you get at first level are usually only used for adventurer oriented stuff. Sure you get 4x skills, but if you don't use that to max out the skills you're going to be using, then you're shooting yourself in the foot. I'm hoping that the extra skill points (along with a dramatically different skill list) will encourage characters to have that point in Craft (leatherworking) because they're the son of a tanner or Knowledge (religion) because they were raised in a religious orphanage.
It might, but it might also just let them spend the points in more useful skills.


On top of that, I'm considering having these racaial HD and LA not count when it comes to determining things like max skill ranks, XP needed to level, etc.
Then why play a PhB race at all? All those races with superior stats just became available with no real penalty. This seems to encourage more min-maxing.

Somebody has to play devil's advocate, right?

As an organization or a community or set of beliefs or source of temporal power, yes. As a source of magical power, no. For classes that can lose powers based on violation of religious tennents (I can't remember if Divine Minds and Crusaders fall under this category off the top of my head), the loss of powers is a psychosomatic symptom of their guilt (i.e. at some level, even if only subconciously, they know what they did was wrong according to their beliefs and they "deserve" to lose their "god given blessings" for it). Some religious organizations even go so far as to speficially train for this effect through use of powers like aversion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/aversion.htm).

I thought Crusaders got their power directly from a deity. As a result, wouldn't they worship deities as a souce of such 'magical' power?

Oh, BTW, which version of Astral Construct are you using? The one that only allows one in existance, or the original version?

[Black Plauge]

They generally get a worse BAB or hit die, and no class features.
Worse BAB or HD? Maybe. No "class" features? Nope.

Compare my Dwarf:

Dwarf Racial Traits:
+4 Constitution, –2 Charisma.
Medium: As Medium creatures, dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).
A dwarf begins play with 3 levels of humanoid. This grants them 3d8 hp (and rp), +2 BAB, +3 Fort save, +1 Ref save, and +1 Will save.
A dwarf’s racial levels grant them two feats.
A dwarf’s racial levels grant them (2 + Int modifier) x 3 skill points. A dwarf’s racial class skills are Appraise, Climb, Craft, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Profession, Sense Motive, and Survival.
Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 90 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all.
Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +4 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 20 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up, and which way is north underground (as if he had 5 ranks in Survival).
Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgoshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
+3 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
+3 racial bonus on saving throws against magical effects
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids.
+5 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items.
+5 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.
Automatic Languages: Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon.
Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass dwarf ’s fighter class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing


to the PHB Dwarf:
+2 Constitution, -2 Charisma.
Medium: As Medium creatures, dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).
Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all.
Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up.
Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids.
+4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too.
+2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items.
+2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.
Automatic Languages: Common and Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon.
Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass dwarf’s fighter class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing

Ignoring the HD and directly related abilities, you can see that my Dwarf has better ability score adjustments and higher bonuses to just about all of his racial abilities.

In boosting races up to ECL 3 I don't just give them HD. I also try to come up with appropriate extra or improvements to their racial abilities so that they are really an ECL 3 and not an ECL 0 with 3 sub-par HD tacked on. The only time where a race might only gain HD, and not additional (or improved) racial abilities are cases like the Githyanki and the Githzerai where they have an LA but no racial HD. In those cases, however, I'll lower the LA as I tack on the HD (for instance, I think that either Gith, both LA +2 normally, would probably make a decent ECL 3 with LA +1 and 2 racial HD, but no other changes to their racial abilities).

Then why play a PhB race at all? All those races with superior stats just became available with no real penalty. This seems to encourage more min-maxing.
Yes, they're available with no real penalty, but I'm also trying to make sure that they don't have any advantage either. I hope that the boosts that low ECL races get to bring them up to snuff make them just as appealing as any other race.

I thought Crusaders got their power directly from a deity. As a result, wouldn't they worship deities as a souce of such 'magical' power?
I'll have to look into this.

Oh, BTW, which version of Astral Construct are you using? The one that only allows one in existance, or the original version?
I'm of a divided mind on this one now. When I first saw that "errata" in CP I was very much opposed to it. However, I find that I don't feel quite so strongly about it now and wonder if my initial reaction was just an opposition to change.

There are still arguments to be made that the restriction is dumb (a 9th level AC is CR 10, an Elder Elemental, on the SNAIX list, is CR 11, if you can get multiple of the second through multiple castings, why not multiples of the first?) but when I think about the capabilities of Constructor/Ectopic Adept character* I begin to wonder if said arguments aren't a bit short sighted.

*A Shaper 5/Ecotpic Adept 5/Constructor 10 with Practiced Manifester can create 4 level 9 constructs during the surprise round. Each construct can have either 4 C Menu choices, 5 B Menu choices, 4 B and 2 A Menu choices, 3 B and 3 A Menu choices, 2 B and 4 A Menu choices, 1 B and 5 A Menu choices, or be an Ectopic form with 3 Menu choices from any list. And that's with the limits on the number of manifestations of Astral Construct that can be active at one time. Plus, by spending his action to regain psionic focus the next round, those constructs will have a duration of 20 minutes.

[Linklegacy77]

Ah, I see. Well, with the upgraded races, much of my concern goes away.

[Linklegacy77]

Another question:

what about binders, shadowcasters, and truenamers?

[Black Plauge]

Not including them.

[Linklegacy77]

I can modify the hexblade for you, if you want, but I don't think it is necessary to have them with classes like the psychic warrior, all the martial adept classes, divine mind, and the soulborn.

[Black Plauge]

Actually, I have a fairly specific modification for the Hexblade already in mind that I'll be using if I pull them off the banned list. Thanks for the offer though.

[Linklegacy77]

Sure thing.

What exactly were you planning on doing with creatures that relied on magic to survive flavor wise, or are based around magic? Doing away with them?

Fortunately, all the psionic conversion are done for you for the primarily psionic races, such as illithids, and more.

BTW, when you get a chance, would you let me know what you think of my soulknife PrC's over at 3ebb?

[Black Plauge]

What exactly were you planning on doing with creatures that relied on magic to survive flavor wise, or are based around magic? Doing away with them?
Depends on the monster. Which in particular are you thinking of?

[Linklegacy77]

The non psionic dragons, unicorns, Angels, Demons, Devils, beholders, chimeras, etc.

[Black Plauge]

Chromatic & Metallic Dragons: I'm probably going to replace the sorcerous spellcasting of one group with incarnum and of the other with martial disciplines. This will give me one group of dragons with each type of magic. I still haven't worked out exact details for this, however. Also, CS history (http://online-roleplaying.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5242) has dragons being very rare anyway.

Unicorns: Other than their spell like abilities, unicorns aren't really a problem. If I ever need a unicorn in a game, I'll replace it's spell-like abilities with thematically appropriate psionics, soulmelds, or martial manuvers.

Angels, Demons, Devils, and other outsiders: These will need some tweaking to replace their spell-like abilities, and in some cases are going to have their alignment shifted, but otherwise will be used as is.

Beholders: Probably going to just get rid of them. Their antimagic cone would function just fine, but I don't know that it would be possible to properly adjust all their eye-rays.

Chimera: There is no reason not to use this creature as is.

[Linklegacy77]

I mention some of those creatures because their whole existance is based on magic, thus the type "Magical Beast."

Chimeras are created by magic, after all.

I was not referring to mechanics purely, but from a flavor perspective.

[Black Plauge]

Ah, I misunderstood.

Magic still exists in this world, even if its practice doesn't take the usual forms. Said creatures can and do exist (albeit with some tweaks to their mechanics).

[Linklegacy77]

Oh, okay.

[Noocytx]

Note: You still haven't taken spellthief off the list to be fixed.

Second, here's the premise of the "Martial Assassin"

Same as Assassin except as noted.

Requirements
Add:
Martial Maneuvers: Must know at least one shadow hand maneuver

Class Features
Remove Spellcasting

Add
Maneuvers: At each even numbered level, you gain one new maneuver from the Shadow Hand. You must meet a maneuver's prerequisite to learn it. You add your full Martial Assassin levels to your initiator level to determine your highest level maneuvers known.
At 5th level and 9th level, you gain an additional maneuver readied per day.

Stances Known: At 3rd level and 7th level, you learn a new stance from the Shadow Hand. You must meet a stance's prerequisite to learn it.

[LeadPal]

I'd love to be in this game, as I'm very impressed by how many of the principle ideas parallel my own. I'll throw in my two cents after I've combed over every nuance of the first page.

[Black Plauge]

Nooctyx -
My first impression is that I like it. I especially like the fact that it's possible for a character without any levels in a martial discipline class to get in. I want to sit down with a copy of ToB and look at the Shadow Hand manuvers just to make sure, but I expect that to be the way I adapt the class.

[LeadPal]

Something I found a little odd:

The reality of magic means that the spread of attitudes amongst the populace is more like that of modern day Earth rather than medieval Europe (despite the tech level of the setting).Fair enough, but...

There are no magic items of any kind.Unless practitioners of magic are extremely common, this seems difficult to imagine. Certainly, using magic a character can do things equivalent or superiour to what is possible IRL, but for ordinary folk, there is no access to that sort of thing, unless you have the direct and immediate action of a psion or incarnate or whatnot; and because this would make large-scale communication impossible, it's not likely to profoundly change religion.

There are some possible fixes to this, of course:

1) Compromise magic items. Doing it directly is a bad idea that would damage the setting, of course, but there are alternatives; perhaps there could be ways of imbuing items with power to create long-lasting but temporary items. I think this is the most attractive idea, but it could be difficult to implement.

2) The Eberron Strategy. I'm operating on the assumption that magic is, in the vast majority, moderately rare and mysterious in this setting; however, if magic is an ordinary force like technology today, much of the issue disappears. Implementing some new form of the magewright class could do the trick. But then, that's little better than lifting the ban on magic items. I don't suggest this option. At all.

3) Compromise religion. Since only an elite minority has access to magic, they're the only ones who treat religion in the same way that modern humans do. But, the huddled masses are ignorant of that, and believe that faith can move mountains--literally. The interesting thing about this is that it keeps a spotlight on religion and keeps it influencing the entire setting, while preventing it from dominating (since those most likely to come to power are also most likely to learn better). The net result might feel like Europe in the grip of the Renaissance. Unfortunately, it would be as difficult to explain in-game as it is out of it...

4) It's magic! You could wave your hand and ignore the whole issue. Maybe I'm just nitpicking. Not my favourite idea, but it could be effective.

5) Explain what you mean to me. Maybe you're shaking your head as you read this, fully knowing that I've missed your point entirely.


Personally, I'd go with either 1), because it would be fun to conceive, or 2), because it has a lot of flavour advantages going for it. It might also settle the issue of the crusader, which at the moment seems to gain power based on faith rather than directly from God--which may be enough to convince the common, isolated people that He's very important indeed.

[Linklegacy77]

I believe he means no 'magic' items, in the sense no items based on magic. There are psionic items, and martial scrolls etc.

[Noocytx]

BP, what do you want to be changed with on the Horizon Walker?

As far as I can see, the HW only has one possible spell like ability. You could either remove it or replace it with the psionic equivalent. Or where else do you want to go with this?

[Linklegacy77]

Psionic dimension door as a psi-like ability?

[Noocytx]

I was just looking over your bard variant, and came across something ...

In the section for combine songs, you state that a bard can combine two songs into your perform check, but doing so requires a perform check of 10+required ranks of both songs.

In the example section, you don't include the 10 at all, making the checks seem easier than they should be. Also, there was a small addition error there (11+8=19, not 20). Then again, that DC should also be 10 higher now though, since it was missing that part anyways.

Also, are you going to include performance levels better than Extraordinary? They mentioned them in a dragon magazine, or can be found here on page 48 (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Skills_Actions.pdf). Basically, it extends performances to include Incredible performances and Legendary performances. These performances earn pp instead of gp, and combining that with refine performance may be a little too much. I was just wondering what your thoughts were to this though.
Maybe make it so only bards of a certain level can do Incredible or Extraordinary performances.

[Black Plauge]

Unless practitioners of magic are extremely common, this seems difficult to imagine. Certainly, using magic a character can do things equivalent or superiour to what is possible IRL, but for ordinary folk, there is no access to that sort of thing, unless you have the direct and immediate action of a psion or incarnate or whatnot; and because this would make large-scale communication impossible, it's not likely to profoundly change religion.
Actually, it is very easy for even characters with NPC classes to have access to just a little bit of magic under the three systems I'm using because of feats. In particular Shape Soulmeld, Martial Stance, Martial Study, and Hidden Talent come to mind, but there are others as well. As a result, it shouldn't be suprising that the king's chief diplomat, even if he's just an expert, has a Soulspeaker Criclet shaped all the time (allowing him to understand all languages). Or the local blacksmith (again, an expert) might have the psionic power control flames to allow him better control of his forge. Local militia members might have bolt so that they always have access to a few extra (and more potent) arrows than they carry around in their quiver. Etc.

The result is that most everyone will encounter magic on a regular, if not daily basis.

I believe he means no 'magic' items, in the sense no items based on magic. There are psionic items, and martial scrolls etc.
No. I mean none, period. No psionic items, no martial scrolls.

BP, what do you want to be changed with on the Horizon Walker?

As far as I can see, the HW only has one possible spell like ability. You could either remove it or replace it with the psionic equivalent. Or where else do you want to go with this?
You have it right. Only Shifting Planar mastery needs to be modified, and as Link pointed out, there is a psionic equivalent power now (in CP) so it would be easiest to just make that switch. As I recall, however, there is also a soulmeld that would work, so I'm not sure which I'd prefer to use.

In the example section, you don't include the 10 at all, making the checks seem easier than they should be. Also, there was a small addition error there (11+8=19, not 20). Then again, that DC should also be 10 higher now though, since it was missing that part anyways.
Thanks for that catch. I've fixed it.

Also, are you going to include performance levels better than Extraordinary? They mentioned them in a dragon magazine, or can be found here on page 48. Basically, it extends performances to include Incredible performances and Legendary performances. These performances earn pp instead of gp, and combining that with refine performance may be a little too much. I was just wondering what your thoughts were to this though.
Maybe make it so only bards of a certain level can do Incredible or Extraordinary performances.
Dragon Magazine is not an allowed resource, so no Incredible or Legendary performances.

[Noocytx]

You have it right. Only Shifting Planar mastery needs to be modified, and as Link pointed out, there is a psionic equivalent power now (in CP) so it would be easiest to just make that switch. As I recall, however, there is also a soulmeld that would work, so I'm not sure which I'd prefer to use.

I personally would go with the psionic equivalent.

I believe one of the reasons you would want to go with the incarnum equivalent is because it might help balance out the different styles of magic. I don't think that would really be useful in this case though, because just one small aspect of either psionics or incarnum would be useful for the PrC. I don't believe it would unbalance the options of the PrC's for different kinds of magic options.

[Linklegacy77]

Besides, the psionic version is just plain easier to deal with mechanically. In all effects, if you use psionic dimension door as a psi-like ability, there will be essentially no change whatsoever.

BTW: Noocytx, I like your assassin.

[Noocytx]

Just to bring this back up again,

Where would you like to go with the dragons.

I see you would like to make some dragons with martial disciplines and some with incarnum.

Where exactly with the martial disciplines? Do you want to create a dragon for each martial discipline (9 different dragons), or just a handful with different mixes of the martial disciplines for the dragons (Like 5 dragons).

[Black Plauge]

Under RAW, dragons over a certain age cast spells (and have spells known) as a sorcerer of some level (which varies with color and age category). What I think I want to do is replace this with them having the ability to shape soulmelds or perform martial maneuvers as a incarnum or martial discipline class of that level. I'd like for either all metallic to be incarnum users and all chromatic to be martial discipline users or vis-versa as this will create a balance with the gem dragons (who are all psionics users) amongst the magical traditions in dragonkind. This may, however, prejudice the magic traditions to certain alignments, so I'm not adverse to mixing and matching.

Example: A Young Gold dragon casts spells as a 1st level sorcerer according to the MM. Since that kind of spellcasting is prohibited in this CS, I might instead give them the ability to shape soulmelds as a 1st level incarnate (note I'm picking a magic genre and class randomly here, not actually making a decision).

[Noocytx]

I like the idea of keeping each style of dragon one way (i.e. Chromatic=Martial, Metallic=Incarnum, Gem=Psionic)

What I would do though, in order to create balance, would be alter the alignments so that they vary within the subset.
Such as
Gold=LG, Silver=CG, Brass=N, Copper=LE, Bronze=CE
Black=CE, Red=LE, Blue=N, Green=CG, White=LG
I would also modify the Gem dragons, so that they represent the neutral axis of each (N, NE, NG, LN, CN)

I think changing alignments would seem better than mixing and matching styles with dragon colors. I'm not so sure if this would work out, but I like the idea better.

[Black Plauge]

I too would prefer to change alignments than mixing styles. It might take some getting used to for the players (and me), but it gives some clear themes to the magic.
Oh, and Gem Dragons are already neutral (Amethyst=N, Crystal=CN, Emerald=LN, Sapphire=LN, Topaz=CN) or were suggesting that two should be switched to NG and NE?

[Noocytx]

Yea, I would make a switch so that one would be NG and one NE. Just to help round everything out there.

Any while it might take a little to get use to, so is everything else. The calendar, the new style of magic, everything.

[Noocytx]

Not wanting to post twice in a row, but I have another question for you.

Do you want three different dragon disciples? One for each style of magic.
Since the original dragon disciple was modified only on core rules, it only dealt with spellcasting.

Do you want to add in multiple paths for the DD to follow, one for martial disciplines, one for incarnum, and one for psionics? This seems to be the natural path to follow.

(I'm also making this my next project probably)

[Black Plauge]

I think, given what we've been talking about for dragons themselves, there should be 3 different tracks for the DD and that the track you follow is dictated by your choice of dragon type.

For instance, if you choose to be a Topaz Dragon Disciple, you should be forced down a psionic track (as Topaz dragons are psionic).

[Linklegacy77]

I agree with that.

Anything you want me to work on BP? I'll help with anything.

[Black Plauge]

No. I don't have anything in particular that I want people to focus on. What I'm trying to do right now is work through my stack of books and list classes on the banned or need to be modified lists as appropriate. Kind of generating a list of "things to do".

Actually, now that I think about it, there are plenty of races that need work, and even several of those that have "been done" which need revision. If you want to start with something you could start there (or anywhere else you want).

[Linklegacy77]

Halfling:

+4 Dex, -2 str
Small: As a small creature, a halfling gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on hide checks, but she uses smaller weapons than humans use, and her lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a medium creature.
A halfling begins play with 3 levels of humanoid. This grants them 3d8 hp (and rp), +2 BAB, +1 Fort save, +3 Ref save, and +1 Will save.
A halfling's racial levels grant them two feats.
A halfling’s racial levels grant them (2 + Int modifier) x 3 skill points. A halfling’s racial class skills are Climb, Craft, Jump, Hide, Move Silently, Listen, and Profession
Halfling base land speed is 20 ft.
+3 racial bonus on climb, jump, and move silently checks. Halflings are agile, surefooted, and athletic.
+2 racial bonus on all saving throws. Halflings are suprisingly capable of avoiding mishaps.
+3 morale bonus on saving throws against fear.
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons and slings.
+2 racial bonus on damage rolls with thrown weapons and slings.
+3 racial bonus on listen chcks
Automatic Languages: Common and Halfling
Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, and Orc.
Favored Class: Rogue

[Noocytx]

Here's the premise for the DD change

Dragon Disciple

Requirements
Remove:
Skills: Knowledge (Arcane) 8 ranks
Spellcasting: Must be able to cast arcane spells without preparation.

Add:
Special:
Must meet certain requirements depending on which type of dragon variety is being selected.

Metallic (Martial Disciplines)
Skills: Knowledge (Local) 8 Ranks
Martial Manuevers: Must know any one maneuver

Chromatic (Incarnum)
Skills: Knowledge (The Planes) 8 Ranks
Essential Pool

Gem (Psionic)
Skills: Knowledge (Psionics) 8 ranks
Psionics: Must be able to manifest psionic powers and have a power point reserve of at least 3 power points.


Class Features
Remove:
Bonus Spells

Add:
Bonus Features:
Following bonus features depend on which style of dragon that was chosen

Chromatic (Incarnum)
Essentia Pool: At levels 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 8, and 9, you gain one bonus essentia pool point.

Metallic (Martial Disciplines)
Maneuvers: At levels 1, 4, 6, and 9, you gain one new maneuver from any discipline you had previous access to. You must meet a maneuver’s prerequisite to learn it. You onlyadd 1/2 your dragon disciple levels to your initiator level to determine your total initiator level and your highest level maneuvers known.
You gain additional maneuvers known at level 2 and 8.

Stances Known: At level 5, you learn a new martial stance from any discipline you had previous access to. You must meet a stance’s prerequisite to learn it.

Gem (Psionic)
Bonus Power Points: At levels 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 8, and 9 you gain 3 bonus power points. If a character has more than one psionic class, he must decide to which class he adds each set of bonus power points as it is gained. Once the bonus power points have been applied, it cannot be changed.

Add the following five lines to the dragon variety / breath weapon table.
Amethyst // Line of Concussive Force
Crystal // Cone of Brilliant Light
Emerald // Cone of Sonic Energy
Sapphire // Cone of Sonic Energy
Topaz // Cone of Dehydration (Water)

-----------------------------------------------
I would think that the damage for the gem dragons should be d6’s instead of d8’s because the damage cannot be blocked as easily as the standard breath weapons.

I don't know if I like the martial discipline change for the bonus feature sections. I kept it more like the original bonus spells for psionics and incarnum, but I don't know how it is possible for martial disciplines. I really can't see granting them bonus maneuvers readied for 7 levels, so I tried to evenly substitute maneuvers / maneuvers readied / stances known between the levels.
I don't know if this is the best way to do it, since it seems to go away from the original concept of the dragon disciple. Other ideas / fixes would be greatly appreciated as well.

[Linklegacy77]

Why knowledge (local) for martial adepts? I would have thought it would be Martial Lore...

Make sure to rewrite 'cast psionic spells' to manifest psionic powers. It's not an important distinction, except for flavor.

Don't say you don't add your DD level to your initiator level, say you only add 1/2 your level. Otherwise, it sounds like it is the only class in the game that doesn't even give 1/2.

[Noocytx]

I went back and edited for the manifesting powers change and the 1/2 initiator level change.

I thought about martial lore, but martial lore is more similar to spellcraft than it is knowledge (arcana). In ToB, it says that Knowledge (Local) covers a lot of the history of martial disciplines, so I figured that would fit better since the originally it was Knowledge (Arcana) and not spellcraft.

[LeadPal]

Still, knowledge (local) also incorporates a lot of miscellaneous information that isn't relevant to the class. Mind you, I don't have ToB and so probably ought not to comment.

BP: Good to hear that you've gone with option 5: explain what's going on to me. :) I probably should have seen that one coming, since I don't own anything related to over half your "magic"* system.

I'd like to work on the most glaringly neglected part of your racial setup: your aquatic races. From what I'm getting out of your setting, world trade by shipping should be extremely widespread on a world of such disparate continents, since it should be a simple matter to maintain ships and navigate with low-power "magic."

This means that the aquatic races would have a huge effect on world politics, since they would be easily capable of blockading ports, thus isolating islands and even whole continents, and would be difficult for land races to assault. (I imagine the maenads, or whoever is currently living on maenad isle, would either have deep friendship or intense hatred for the merfolk.) Further, the lack of definite borders in the ocean would probably create extreme racial tension, causing a lot of warring between underwater armies.

Even if they're not as important as I'm making them out to be, they ought to at least get some references in world history.

*From now on, I'm putting magic in quotation marks. No need for confusion, since I really mean "psionics, incarnum and martial disciplines" every time I say it.

[Noocytx]

Just to bring up the knowledge idea for the dragon disciple again...

The original dragon disciple had knowledge (arcana). This covers ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, and magical beasts.

Knowledge (Local) covers legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids.
ToB adds that Knowledge (Local) answers questions about martial practitioners and traditions.

Martial lore is used to identify maneuvers used in combat.

I would think that the knowledge skill would be more relevant, as it probably would cover the history of martial discipline dragons.

**************************
With the races, I don't know if I like the fact that all humanoids will be starting off with the same base saves. It just seems weird that everybody will have a base save of +3 fort, +1 ref, and +1 will.
It might just be me nit-picking, but something that I've thought about and wanted to mention.

[Black Plauge]

I'd like to work on the most glaringly neglected part of your racial setup: your aquatic races. From what I'm getting out of your setting, world trade by shipping should be extremely widespread on a world of such disparate continents, since it should be a simple matter to maintain ships and navigate with low-power "magic."

This means that the aquatic races would have a huge effect on world politics, since they would be easily capable of blockading ports, thus isolating islands and even whole continents, and would be difficult for land races to assault. (I imagine the maenads, or whoever is currently living on maenad isle, would either have deep friendship or intense hatred for the merfolk.) Further, the lack of definite borders in the ocean would probably create extreme racial tension, causing a lot of warring between underwater armies.
Indeed, I've always thought that aquatic races, especially those that can and do live in deep water, should play an important roll in international trade and travel that crosses the ocean. I'd love to see what your thoughts on the matter are.

ith the races, I don't know if I like the fact that all humanoids will be starting off with the same base saves. It just seems weird that everybody will have a base save of +3 fort, +1 ref, and +1 will.
It might just be me nit-picking, but something that I've thought about and wanted to mention.
While those are the "usual" saves for humanoids, I'm perfectly willing to change them up where it is appropriate. Indeed, I think I have it at least a few cases already.

Metallic (Martial Disciplines)
Maneuvers: At levels 1, 4, 6, and 9, you gain one new maneuver from any discipline you had previous access to. You must meet a maneuver’s prerequisite to learn it. You onlyadd 1/2 your dragon disciple levels to your initiator level to determine your total initiator level and your highest level maneuvers known.
You gain additional maneuvers known at level 2 and 8.

Stances Known: At level 5, you learn a new martial stance from any discipline you had previous access to. You must meet a stance’s prerequisite to learn it.
***
I don't know if I like the martial discipline change for the bonus feature sections. I kept it more like the original bonus spells for psionics and incarnum, but I don't know how it is possible for martial disciplines. I really can't see granting them bonus maneuvers readied for 7 levels, so I tried to evenly substitute maneuvers / maneuvers readied / stances known between the levels.
I don't know if this is the best way to do it, since it seems to go away from the original concept of the dragon disciple. Other ideas / fixes would be greatly appreciated as well.
I kind of feel the same way. The Dragon Disciple's magic is more about it becoming easier and more frequent as the DD's connection to dragons is strengthened, not more powerful. I think the ability to have more maneuvers readied should be the primary benefit, but can't be the only one (simply because a wanna-be metallic DD won't know that many maneuvers). Maybe an ability to make changing stances or recovering maneuvers easier?

If a character has more than one psionic class, he must decide to which class he adds each set of bonus power points as it is gained. Once the bonus power points have been applied, it cannot be changed.
This line is not necessary as all psionic characters have 1 and only one power point pool which can be used to power their powers from any and all sources.

A halfling’s racial class skills are Climb, Jump, Hide, Move Silently, and Listen
I would add Craft and Profession to this list. I don't think this addition significantly affects the balance.

+1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons and slings.
+2 racial bonus on damage rolls with thrown weapons and slings.
Isn't this a bit backwards from normal? Why did you elect to make the damage bonus higher than the attack bonus?

[Linklegacy77]

I kept the bonus on attack rolls the same, but added in the ability from the Halfling Paragon class in the Unearthed Arcana, which adds 2 points of damage from any thrown weapon.

I'll add the class skills.

Changed the hafllings base saves to +1 fort, +3 ref, +1 will, which suits the race better.

[Wisp]

Interesting stuff you got here. If you need help with anything, feel free to tell me how I can help, as I usually have a decent amount of free time on my hands, and access to most D&D books out.

[Black Plauge]

Okay, so it's been quite a while since I touched this, but the DD idea for martial dragons has been tumbling around in my head and I think I have a solution:

Maneuvers: At each level you can ready an additional maneuver readied per day. If you already can ready all the maneuvers that you know, then you gain Sudden Recovery as a bonus feat instead. If you gain Sudden Recovery multiple times as a result of this class ability (or already have the feat before entering this class) then its effects stack.
Example: Tordek (a level 13 fighter) has taken Martial Study to learn the stone bones maneuver. Normally he can only use this maneuver once per encounter because he is not a martial adept. At 14th level, however, when he takes his first level of Dragon Disciple, he gains Sudden Recovery as a bonus feat, effectively allowing him to use the stone bones maneuver
twice in one encounter per day, and once in all others. If he then takes an additional level of Dragon Disciple at 15th level, he then can recover his single known maneuver twice per day effectively giving him either 1 encounter with three uses or 2 encounters with two uses each day. If Tordek later takes a level of Swordsage (granting him 6 additional maneuvers known and 4 additional readied) before going back to taking levels of Dragon Disciple, then he will gain a maneuver readied at each Dragon Disciple level until once again, his maneuvers readied equals his maneuvers known (7 in this case).

[Black Plauge]

Oh, I just had an idea for a replacement for Apprentice Spellcaster for humans:

Apprentice Learner (Ex): Pick one class ability whose power is is dependant on class level (such as a monk's unarmed damage, or a ranger's animal companion). This character's human HD are treated as being of that class for determining how powerful that ability is. This ability must be chosen at 1st level and cannot later be changed. Note: For psionic powers known you must chose either number of powers known, or manifester level. For martial maneuvers you must choose either Maneuvers Known, or initiator level. For meldshaping you must choose either Soulmelds, Essentia, or meldshaper level.

[Noocytx]

I like the idea for the DD, a lot better then what I had came up with. Fits with the theme.

I like apprentice learner, but my real question there is where is apprentice spellcaster from?

[Black Plauge]

The human paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon) class normally gets two levels of spellcasting advancement during it's progression. Since I'm forcing that these levels be "taken" prior to any other class levels, there is no opportunity for this ability to come into play, leading to a potential balance problem. Apprentice Spellcaster, was my original attempt (back when I was still including normal magic) at reconciling this.

[Black Plauge]

Okay, I just undeleted a couple of things because I want to put forward an idea I've been toying around with in my head.

I'm thinking of allowing the Hexblade by stripping it of its spellcasting and giving it a full familiar progression using my improved familiar system (explained here (http://online-roleplaying.com/forums/showpost.php?p=133694&postcount=4) and here (http://online-roleplaying.com/forums/showpost.php?p=134498&postcount=3)).

Would this be a balanced modification? Obviously there's some rewording to do in order because of what I've done to magic, but does the basic premise still hold up?

[Black Plauge]

With the forth-coming release of 4th edition, which appears to possibly fix at least some of the same things that my house rules are designed to address, it is likely that I'm going to put off this campaign until after its release. I'll probably continue to work on different house rules, but not in as much detail as I had previously put into them. Instead, I'll more be jotting down ideas about things I'd like to see fixed (and some rough sketchs of how they might be fixed) so that I'll have something to compare with when 4th edition comes out.

If 4th edition proves to address enough of the problems I have with 3.5, then I'll probably concern myself with converting those things that don't make the 4th edition release rather than continuing to write 3.5 house rules. Otherwise, I'll pick up these ideas again after concluding that 4th doesn't do what I want it to do for this CS.

[Linklegacy77]

3.5 material is supposed to be very difficult if not impossible to convert... so converting ToB, Psionics, and Incarnum might prove very difficult.

[Black Plauge]

Well, from the sounds of it, ToB type material is already getting incorporated into the new combat engine and psionics is on the list of things to do (though possibly not for initial release) so I may only need to actually convert Incarnum.

At least, that is what I'm hoping.

[Linklegacy77]

Good luck with the conversion. Still, I think it would be easier to work with the houserules on 3.5.

[Black Plauge]

We'll see. It's kind of hard to tell with no mechanics for 4.0 published yet.

[Linklegacy77]

Very true.

It just would be a shame to throw out a lot of the work that's already been done.

[Black Plauge]

It may be a shame, but it might also be more balanced. 4E will have far more playtesting than anything I could possibly do for my house rules. So while when I write my house rules I try to look at all the angles, really think about what I'm trying to accomplish and how to do that in a balanced way, and follow that up with some number crunching to make sure the math agrees with my gut, there's always the chance that something that looks good on paper will end up being hell in practice.

If 4E does many of the things that I'm trying to do, then it will save me significant playtesting work. If it doesn't, then I'll continue with the 3.5 house rules because I'm that much closer to having a workable 3.5 house-ruled system than 4E would be.

Basically my position boils down to waiting for 4E and then seeing which will be less work: converting to 4E what isn't present but is needed for this CS, or finishing the 3.5 houserules and playtesting them.

[Canter_shadow]

I think Link's just upset since now he has to wait even longer...

[Black Plauge]

Well, there's still the chance that I'll get tired of waiting and simply try to start another game with the house rules anyway.

[Black Plauge]

Okay, at this point I'm begining to switch things over to a more flexible contribution format.

All rules changes still need to go through me and should be proposed here.

However, any ideas about "fluff" (racial write-ups, myths, legends, maps, governments, etc.) can be posted directly in the World Info subforum. Indeed, I'm going to use the wiki threads to allow contributers to edit each other's stuff so that you don't have to contribute everything at once. One contributer can propose a race in outline and another go in and edit it to flesh it out. In order to be a contributer you'll have to tell me your interested (as I have to add your name to the list of wiki editors) but I'm willing to add anyone who wants to contribute (potential/actual player or not).

[Black Plauge]

Oh, and I have changed my mind about waiting for 4e. I've already managed to sketch out the first couple of adventure arcs in my DM notes thread so I'll probably be recruiting players soon. I will most likely wait until I finish creating my character for Benicus' Saga of Epoch game on dragonavenue.com (it's my first d20A character and JK's system takes some getting used to) but once that's done, I expect to have enough time on my hands to actually DM this game.

[Linklegacy77]

Excellent.

/cackle

[Black Plauge]

Link, since you seem to be the one who's paying the most attention here could you kindly tell me when you gain editorial rights to the Races wiki?

[Linklegacy77]

sure...

I'm at the moment unable to edit the races thread.

[Linklegacy77]

Still nothing.

Just wanted to let you know I'm still here.

[Black Plauge]

Thanks.

[Grognard]

I probably don't have the head for math that you display but I am an experienced min-maxer.So,my two cents worth.

'Number of Attacks per round
There are no iterative attacks. Instead all characters get a damage bonus equal to 1/2 the number of levels they have in PC classes (both base and prestige).'
This is dangerous.The major balance between fighter and rogue is bab,and number of attacks.Recomend,to maintain the same sort of clarity as this mod,that damage bonus be set equal to bab.

'Feats and class abilities which grant additional attacks in a round still function as normal except for those that grant additional iterative attacks, which are banned (such as Improved Two Weapon fighting).'
Fast shot?Improved shield bash?

'Secondary attacks cannot be used in conjunction with primary attacks except by creatures with the Multiattack feat. Even with the Multiattack feat, however, these attacks still take a -5 penalty. The feat Improved Multiattack now functions as Multiattack used to (reducing the penalty to -2).'
Might want to reduce the cr for this class of monster by 1 to represent the nerf.

[Black Plauge]

This is dangerous.The major balance between fighter and rogue is bab,and number of attacks.Recomend,to maintain the same sort of clarity as this mod,that damage bonus be set equal to bab.
This house rule was adopted exactly as it was implemented in Saga Edition. Everything that I've read seems to indicate that it works just fine like this, so I'm going to let it play a bit to see how it interacts with all my other changes before changing it too.

Fast shot?Improved shield bash?
If you mean rapid shot, then it works just as it says it does since it doesn't grant additional iterative attacks (though it still requires a full round action to use). Improved shield bash also functions normally since it doesn't grant additional iterative attacks.

Might want to reduce the cr for this class of monster by 1 to represent the nerf.
Monster CRs I think need to be adjusted all over the place given many of the other mods, so I'm purposefully not trying to figure out how each house rule should affect CR. Instead, I'm going to focus on getting an overall feel for how monsters fare under the whole house rule set and modify things from there.

[Grognard]

'This house rule was adopted exactly as it was implemented in Saga Edition. Everything that I've read seems to indicate that it works just fine like this, so I'm going to let it play a bit to see how it interacts with all my other changes before changing it too.'
Makes the poor mages etc more useful when they run out of spells anyway(yes I know they're all psions in your game).I do like the leveled playing field produced by your race and reserve rules.
I did mean rapid shot,sorry.

[Linklegacy77]

The modification to damage works quite well. BAB means a lot more for hitting your foes than the extra attacks, which rarely hit anyway.

Saga did things right.

Anyway, this promotes moving around far more than just "Full attack action".

[Grognard]

Cool.Speed is life!Let me go and look for other mods to try and pick apart.

[Grognard]

Trolls
Changes
Stats modified for decreace in size(Str -4 dex +2 con -4 Na -2).
Penalties increaced to bring them in line with other MH's(bugbear,centaur).
Number of Racial hd reduced for playbalance.
Added survival to race skills as I do not believe a predator with no ability to hunt.
Natural attacks reduced for size.
La reduced for above.


+8 Strength, + 6 Dexterity, +8 Constitution, –6 Intelligence, -4 Wisdom, - 8 Charisma.
Medium size.
Space/Reach: 5 feet/5 feet.
A troll’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision to 60 foot plus Low-light Vision
Racial Hit Dice: A troll begins with two levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +2, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +3, Ref +2, and Will +1.
Racial Skills: A troll’s monstrous humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 2x (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Listen, Spot, and Survival.
Racial Feats: A centaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it one feat.
Natural Attacks: 2 Claw 1d4 Bite 1d6
Special Attacks: Rend.A troll that hits with both claw attacks may tear its enemy apart,doing 2d4 + 1.5 str damage.This attack is a conditional free attack,does not roll to hit, may not be a critical hit,and prevents the use of a bite attack in the same round.
Special Qualities. +3 natural armor bonus,regeneration 5,scent.
Automatic Languages: Giant. Bonus Languages: Human, Orc.
Favored Class: Fighter.
Level adjustment +1__________________

[Linklegacy77]

This is above the power of ECL 3, sorry. Compare to the half-dragon template, which is also ECL 3.

Actually, BP, I did some more consideration on your houserule like Saga did, and I'm somewhat more concerned than I was before.

If you please, Star Wars Saga Edition doesn't need to worry about spellcasters like D&D does. While we don't have any normal casters in this game, we do have psionics and tome of battle material, which is close enough. The extra attacks usually had a decent chance of hitting a low AC caster, where they would fail against another warrior. This was used to balance (somewhat) the awesome power that these casters could unleash. If you remove the extra attacks, the casters just gain more power compared to warrior types.

[Black Plauge]

Trolls...
Personally, I don't see regeneration squeezing into an ECL 3 race, even in a limited form. It's the kind of ability that kind of runs amok in PC hands. A character with regeneration becomes a kind of Energizer bunny, never needing to stop for a break.

Also, those kind of ability adjustments are just screaming "Barbarian!" and really don't lend themselves to playing any psionic or incarnum class.

If you please, Star Wars Saga Edition doesn't need to worry about spellcasters like D&D does. While we don't have any normal casters in this game, we do have psionics and tome of battle material, which is close enough. The extra attacks usually had a decent chance of hitting a low AC caster, where they would fail against another warrior. This was used to balance (somewhat) the awesome power that these casters could unleash. If you remove the extra attacks, the casters just gain more power compared to warrior types.
I don't think that the extra attacks had that much of a better chance of hitting a spellcaster than a warrior type. At 6th level, when iterative attacks first become available, spellcasters have access to ample spells (and items in a normal game) that bring their AC to be on par with an armored character. Your warrior type character might be able to accomplish their AC cheaper, but since they have to spend money on a magical weapon while the spellcaster's spells take care of their damage output.

Example: a 6th level fighter with Full plate and a large shield has an AC of 21. A wizard can get a similar AC by having a decent Dex (say a 16 instead of the fighter's 12), casting mage armor at the beginning of the day (possibly extending it to avoid having to recast it) and owning a amulet of natural armor +1 (not as good as full plate, but about the same cost) for a base AC of 18. Add to that the fact that the wizard can have spells like shield, protection from ..., and cat's grace available for a quick AC boost and/or spells like mirror image and protection from arrows for alternate defenses that can be chosen to fit the priecived need, and I'd say the chances of an extra attack hitting the wizard but not the warrior on average are fairly slim. This kind of AC parity goes on right up the levels.

Plus, in this game, AC parity is even more likley, because armor doesn't interfere with psionics, incarnum, or martial disciplines.

[Linklegacy77]

Well, it has more to do with the fact that the extra attacks do have a chance of hitting, which help add some damage. I'm not saying your idea is bad, just pointing out a potential problem.

[Black Plauge]

If all you're worried about is damage, then I don't see the issue. The bonus means that everyone deals more damage when they hit, but fighter-types and the like will benefit from that more often because they will have higher attack bonuses so they will hit more often. Also, such types are more likely to be attacking, and so get the bonus. Powers and the like don't get the damage bonus.

[Linklegacy77]

That wasn't the concern. It was actually the other way around, that fighter types would be doing even less damage in higher levels in comparison to casters.

[Grognard]

[quote=Black Plauge;295389]Personally, I don't see regeneration squeezing into an ECL 3 race, even in a limited form. It's the kind of ability that kind of runs amok in PC hands. A character with regeneration becomes a kind of Energizer bunny, never needing to stop for a break.

Also, those kind of ability adjustments are just screaming "Barbarian!" and really don't lend themselves to playing any psionic or incarnum class.
quote]

Sbt.Would have been nice.

[Linklegacy77]

I'll give you some more help:

Hobgoblin

Humanoid (Goblinoid)
+2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Wis
Base Land Speed 30 ft.
Medium
A Hobgoblin begins play with 2 levels of humanoid. This grants them 2d8 hp (and rp), +1 BAB, +3 Fort save, +0 Ref save, and +0 Will save.
A Hobgoblin's racial levels grant them one feat.
A Hobgoblin's racial levels grant them (2 + Int modifier) x 2 skill points. A Hobgoblin’s racial class skills are Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Survival
Racial Emnity (Ex): Hobgoblins viciously hate all elves. A Hobgoblin gains a +2 racial bonus on attack rolls against elves, and a +4 racial bonus on damage rolls against elves.
Darkvision out to 120'
+6 racial bonus on move silently checks
Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin
Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Giant, Infernal, Orc
Favored Class: fighter
LA +1

[Linklegacy77]

Synad

Abberation
+4 intelligence
Medium
Base land speed of 30 ft.
Darkvision 60'
A synad begins play with 1 level of Abberation. This grants them 1d8 hp (and rp), +0 BAB, +0 Fort Save, +0 Ref Save, and +2 Will Save.
A synad's racial level grants them one feat.
A syndad's racial level grants them (2+int modifier) skill points. A synad's racial skills are craft, knowledge (all, taken individually), profession, and psicraft
Naturally Psionic: Synads gain 6 bonus power points at 1st level, two each for the overmind, the collective, and the oracle. This does not grant synads the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class.
Threefold Mind (Su): The threefold synthesis of mind, controlled by the over-mind, grants synads an advantage when it comes to resisting mental attacks. They gain a +4 racial bonus on will saving throws.
Oracle (Su): The part of a synad's mind known as the oracle grants him a daily precognitive edge. This translates into a +2 insight bonus that the synad can apply at any time to an initiative check, attack roll, or saving throw. In the case of an attack roll or saving throw, the synad can elect to apply the bonus to the roll or save after he determines whether his roll was a sucess or failure. A synad can apply this precognitive edge 3 times a day.
Collective (Su): The part of a synad's mind known as the collective allows him to tap into a racial network of knowledge and information. A synad can spend 1 power point as a free action to gain a +3 bonus on any knowledge or Psicraft check he makes.
Multitask (Su): A synad's threefold mind can temporarily separate, allowing him to take more than a single mental action during his turn. Once per day, a synad can spend 1 power point to gain a swift action that he can use to take any purely mental action. Examples include manifesting a power or making a knowledge, psicraft, or other check requiring only mental cognition. However, a synad can use his extra mental action to manifest a power only if the normal actions allowed to him that round do not also involve manifesting a power.
LA +2
Automatic Languages: Common and Synad
Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages) The portion of a synad's mind known as the collective exposes him to a wide selection of languages.
Favored Class: Any.

[Linklegacy77]

Something that may have been overlooked: since this world has three focuses of magic (soul, body, and mind), there will be people who focus on more than one. Thus, there should be mixtures of them in existance.

I have already come up with a soulknife/ToB mix and a Soulknife/MoI mix. I can easily see a lurk/swordsage combo, psychic warrior/warblade combo, and a divine mind/crusader combo.

I also can see soulborn/crusader, and incarnate/warblade. Not to mention divine mind/soulborn, and more.

[Linklegacy77]

You might remember this PrC BP:

Soulknife Incarnate:

Requirements:

Feat: Psycarnum Blade,
Special: Shape Mindblade
Essentia Pool: 3 Essentia

Hit Die: d10
3/4 BAB
Good Fort, Good Ref, Good Will

Special:
1. Improved Mind Blade, shape psymeld, Chakra Bind (crown, feet, hands), +1 level of meldshaping
2. Psychic Strike +1d8, +1 level of meldshaping
3. Chakra Bind (arms, brow, Shoulder), +1 level of meldshaping
4. Expanded Soulmeld Capacity +1, +1 level of meldshaping
5. Psychic Strike +1d8, Chakra Bind (Throat, Waist), +1 level of meldshaping

Improved Mind Blade (Ex): Your Soulknife Incarnate levels stack with your levels in Soulknife for the purpose of determining your effective level for your enhancement bonus for your mindblade and the special abilities for your soulknife.

Shape Psymeld (Su): You gain access to the Psymeld, a unique soulmeld. See below for details.

Chakra Bind: You gain the ability to bind soulmelds to your crown, feet, and hand chakra. At third level, you may bind soulmelds to your arms and brow chakra, and at fifth level, you may bind soulmelds to your shoulder, throat, or waist chakra.

Meldshaping: At each level of Soulknife Incarnate, you gain an effective level in any one meldshaping class that you possess for the purposes of determining your meldshaping abilities only. You do not gain any class features of that class. For example, a soulknife 5/incarnate 3/Soulknife Incarnate 3 would be treated as a 6th level incarnate for the purpose of determining soulmelds, essentia, and chakra binds only.

Psychic Strike (Su): Your psychic strike damage increases by 1d8 at level 2, and an additional 1d8 at level 5.

Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (Ex): At fourth level, the essentia capacity of your soulmelds improves by 1.

New Soulmeld:
Psymeld
Descriptors: none
Classes: Soulknife Incarnate
Saving Throw: none

Incarnum swirls around your mindblade when it is manifested, enhancing it with not only your mind energy, but with your soul energy as well.
Your mindblade deals damage as if it were one size larger, depending on the shape of the weapon. (1d8 for shortswords, 2d6 for longswords, 2d8 for bastard swords).
Essentia: You gain a +1 morale bonus on damage rolls with your mindblade for every point of essentia you invest.

Chakra Bind (crown): You generate an aura of light the same color as your mindblade. You have an aura of bright light 20 feet around you, and 20 feet of shadowy illumination after that, as long as your mindblade is manifested.

Chakra Bind (feet): You gain a 5 foot enhancement bonus to speed for every point of essentia invested in this soulmeld, while your mindblade is manifested.

Chakra Bind (hands): You gain a +2 morale bonus for every point of essentia invested in this soulmeld on attack rolls to resist being disarmed or to have your mindblade sundered, while your mindblade is manifested. This applies only to your mindblade.

Chakra Bind (arms): You may reform your mindblade one more time per round as a free action. (Normally you may only form it as a free action once per round)

Chakra Bind (Brow): You gain Blindsense out to 10 feet while your mindblade is manifested. Every point of essentia invested in this soulmeld increases the radius of your blindsense by 5 feet.

Chakra Bind (Shoulder): You gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC for every point of essentia invested in this soulmeld while your mindblade is manifested.

Chakra Bind (Throat): You may, as a standard action once per round, while your mindblade is manifested, unleash the energy of your mindblade as a ranged touch attack against an enemy within 60 feet. Treat this attack as a melee attack by your mindblade for damage and bonus to hit.

Chakra Bind (Waist): You gain DR 1/- for every point of essentia invested in this soulmeld while your mindblade is manifested.

[Black Plauge]

Synad...
I'd prefer more HD and less LA. Since you upped the power on each of the synad's racial abilities, reducing some of them back to a more basic level should fix this nicely.

Also, they aren't a race that I'd listed for additional write-up because they are an aberration, and so far I've only listed humanoids and monstrous humanoids as player races (with the exception of giants). Before I include an aberration as a player race, I want to discuss what role aberrations will play in this world.

Hobgoblin...
You've given them an additional +4 in ability modifiers, while most races only get an additional +2. Also, since they only have LA +1, I'd like to use the "upgrade" process to eliminate their LA altogether (i.e. give them 3 racial HD and compensate for that by not upgrading their racial abilities quite so much).

Soulknife Incarnate...
I do remember it, though I'm not sure quite yet how to guage its power. My instincts say it should be alright, but I'd like to have the game play out a bit to make sure my instincts are on the level first. Besides, since it's a PrC, it won't come into play right away, so there's plenty of time to think about it before it becomes an issue.

[Linklegacy77]

Okay, no LA and more hit dice, I'll take another look later.

I also gave the hobgoblins a +4 to racial abilities because their other racial abilities are less significant. Note that the hobgoblin doesn't have a slieu of other racial traits like +1 to all saves or stonecunning, just a bonus to move silently.

[Linklegacy77]

Githzerai

+6 dexterity, -2 intelligence, +4 wisdom
Medium size
Base land speed 30 ft.
darkvision 60 ft.
A githzerai begins play with 3 levels of humanoid which grants him 3d8 hp (and rp), +2 BAB, +3 fort save, +1 ref save, and a +1 will save.
A githzerai's racial levels grant him 2 feats.
A githzerai's racial levels grant him (2+int)x5 skill points. A githzerai's racial class skills are: autohypnosis, concentration, craft, knowledge (the planes), and profession
naturally psionic: githzerai gain 2 bonus power points at first level.
Psi-like abilities: 3/day- inertial armor, psionic daze, catfall, concussion. Githzerai of 11th level also gain plane shift 1/day. Manifester level is 1/2 hit dice. The save DC's are charisma based.
Power resistance: a githzerai has power resistance of 5+ hit dice.
Automatic languages: common, gith.
Bonus languages: abyssal, celestial, draconic, slaad, undercommon.
Favored Class: psychic warrior

The githzerai was nearly powerful enough as is without modifications. I merely dropped the LA, gave 3 hit dice, and added 2 wisdom for the increase in ECL, since hit dice are better to have then LA. It seems more or less balanced, as it lacks the various special abilities of the other races.

Autohypnosis and concentration were given to them as racial class skills based upon the races flavor, although I almost took them out. Knowledge (the planes) is there because they live on the astral plane (at least, the majority do).

I changed their favored class to psychic warrior to reflect their psionic nature (since I'm using the psionic version). The XPH has their favored class listed as wilder for the psionic version, but that doesn't make much sense to me (their race seems calmer than that), so I switched it to psychic warrior.

[Black Plauge]

Knowledge (the planes) is there because they live on the astral plane (at least, the majority do).
That remains to be seen. No one has written a cultural write-up for the race yet and it is entirely up to whoever wants to take that on whether any part of the race inhabits the Astral Plane.

Other than that, I like it. It's almost exactly along the lines of what I was thinking of doing for them. The racial skill list can always be adjusted once the culture is set.

[Linklegacy77]

Githyanki

+2 Dexterity, +2 constitution, +2 intelligence, -2 wisdom
Medium
Base land speed 30 ft.
Darkvision 60 ft.
Naturally Psionic: A githyanki begins play with 3 additional power points.

A githyanki begins play with 3 levels of humanoid, which grant it 3d8 hp (and rp), +2 BAB, +3 fort save, +1 ref save, and +1 will save
A githyanki's racial hit dice grant it 2 feats
A githyanki's racial hit dice grant it (2+int)x5 skill points. A githyanki's racial class skills are: concentration, craft, knowledge (the planes), and profession

Psi-Like Abilities:
level psi-like abilities
1st 3/day far hand, psionic daze
3rd 3/day concealing amorpha
6th 3/day psionic dimension door
9th 3/day telekinetic thrust, 1/day psionic plane shift

Power Resistance (Ex): a githyanki has power resistance = to 5+hit dice
Automatic languages: gith, common
Bonus Languages: abyssal, celestial, draconic, infernal, undercommon
Favored Class: Psion

More or less similar reasoning to the Githzerai. Added +2 int, since the XPH has their favored psionic class listed as psion.

[Black Plauge]

Just noticed something, both Gith's should only have (2+Int)x3 racial skill points. A multiplier of 5 would be for a race with 2 racial HD and LA +2.

[Black Plauge]

Oh, and neither should have common as an automatic language since common doesn't exist.

[Linklegacy77]

Sorry, did I misunderstand the skills or something? I thought it was x3 for your first hit die, which would mean 5. Or did you houserule that too?

Agreed on the common, my bad.

[Black Plauge]

The bonus skill points at first level is applied to the first class level that a character gets, not to their racial HD. That way a rogue (or similar high skill class) still has their big skill point advantage over other classes. If the multiplier applied to the racial HD, then everyone would have essentially the same number of skill points starting out (since most races get 2+int) and classes like the rogue would only have a 4 or 6 point advantage.

Oh, and it's a x4 with the first class level, as normal.

[Linklegacy77]

Right, sorry. My bad again.

[Black Plauge]

S'okay. There are so many house rules for this game that it almost isn't D&D anymore. Everyone is bound to forget something from time to time.

Oh, and have you had any thoughts on revisions to the races you worked on earlier?

[Linklegacy77]

You mean halflings? I haven't seen anything that really needs changing statistically.

Oh, and I made my decision about what I'm going to play. I'm going to be a representative of soul magic. I think a Dwarven Incarnate is in order.

BTW: I understand you want races to be balanced to 3 racial hit dice as much as possible, but most races listed in the races thread (the mechanical one) have LA and less than 3 hit dice.

[Linklegacy77]

You also need to edit the Vitality belt soulmeld. As written, when bound to the waist chakra, with your houserules, it would make you immune to death since you are immune to con damage and drain.

[Black Plauge]

You mean halflings? I haven't seen anything that really needs changing statistically.
No, I meant the synad and the hobgoblins.

I understand you want races to be balanced to 3 racial hit dice as much as possible, but most races listed in the races thread (the mechanical one) have LA and less than 3 hit dice.
8 of 17 doesn't constitute "most" as it is still less than 50%. However, now that you bring it to my attention, that is a whole bunch more than I realized. I want to say it's because there has been a tendancy to work first on the over powered races to bring them down, but perhaps I should take some time to review those 8 races to make sure that there isn't some way to bring them more inline with my desires.

You also need to edit the Vitality belt soulmeld. As written, when bound to the waist chakra, with your houserules, it would make you immune to death since you are immune to con damage and drain.
Hadn't seen that one. Thank you for pointing it out. I'll work on that this weekend.

[Linklegacy77]

Dwarves are now written up, and they are now evil!

[Black Plauge]

Other than the fact that Drow don't exist, I like it. It keeps some of the aspects of dwarves that everyone is used to and yet turns others on their head. It will be fun to try and make dwarven NPCs live up to that potential.

[Linklegacy77]

Forgot that Drow don't exist...

Although, do you think I could create them as a martial race focused in study of Shadow Hand techniques?

[Black Plauge]

I'd prefer you use one of the races not yet detailed for that. I don't like subraces (which Drow are) and don't want them in Dünya.

[Linklegacy77]

Fine, I need another subeterranean race then....

Illithids won't work... no abberration will. Hmmmm

[Black Plauge]

Underfolk (RoD)?

Or you could just make one of the races that hasn't been written up yet subterranean.

[Linklegacy77]

Aren't underfolk a human subtype?

[Black Plauge]

I don't recall off hand, but I will point out that subtype and subrace are not the same thing.

Example: hobgoblins, goblins, blues, and bugbears all have the same subtype; goblinoid. Of the four, however, only blues are a subrace (of goblins in this case).

[Linklegacy77]

I understand that, but, reading through RoD, they are indeed a subrace of human.

"The underfolk are descendants of bands of humans who chose - or were forced - to live in the caves and twisting passageways of the underground world"

It's certainly okay if you want to keep them, but they are a subrace.

[Black Plauge]

Must have missed that when I put them on the races list. Since they are a subrace, let's leave them out and try to find some other race for the dwarves to hate.

[Linklegacy77]

Dromite should work nicely, they live underground.