Need help building a killer necromancer

[elmer_jok]

I'm faced with the possible death of my character in a f2f game I've been playing for awhile and the DM suggested that I roll up an alternate character just in case before next weeks session. I figured that a necromancer type would be the best, but I haven't the foggiest on how I should go about building him. There's so many options.

A little about the game and character...

We're using the Norse Mythos for gods...
We use 3rd edition...
My character can be up to 7th level...

I've had thoughts of going straight specialist wizard 7, going cleric with an appropriate diety, of having a combination aimed for the True Necromancer PrC in Tome of Blood.

Any thoughts, suggestions or otherwise would be much appreciated.

[Benicus]

Kendral in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil is a pretty mean Dread Necromancer if you wanna take a look-see.

[Linklegacy77]

He's 4th level, and that's 3.5, not 3.0.

I could have had him a lot nastier too if I had really pushed it... made his firbolg skeleton a half-dragon firbolg skeleton.

[Takkaryx]

There's a 3.5 splat book that has a pretty ugly arcane necromancer, but I can't remember where. I'll list one that I know of.

The Forsaken Shigmaa from the Ptolus book is neat. In order to gain levels in the PrC (Among other pre-reqs), you need to die, and be raised. When you loose a level, you gain a level of Forsaken Shigmaa. For instance, a 10th level cleric dies, and is raised. He comes back as a 9 Clr/1 FrS. You level up again, to 10 Clr/1 FrS, and die/raised again. You become a 9 Clr /2 FrS. The Prc itself is cool because you get full spell progression or a feat every level, you take on aspects of the undead, like energy drain attacks and what not, as well as command of undead.

[Skidrow]

I've had thoughts of going straight specialist wizard 7

If you do that, you may want to look at these:
Necromancer Variants

Wrapped in mystery and burdened by reputations of evil, necromancers control dangerous energies that rob the living of strength and grant unlife to the dead. The most powerful necromancers command dangerous undead minions and threaten towns, cities, and sometimes even entire kingdoms with their power. Although necromancers make excellent villains and nemeses for a group of adventurers, neutral- and good-aligned necromancers who view themselves as the shepherds of the living and guardians of the dead can also prove valuable allies.
Campaigns that include evil necromancers or groups of undead as antagonists can benefit from the inclusion of variant necromancers. Rival groups of necromancers might view certain types of undead as the only true or "pure" undead and all others as evils that must be destroyed, with each group disagreeing on which types are which. Other factions or groups might have an innate loathing for undead raised by any but themselves.

Skeletal Minion

A 1st-level necromancer using this variant can begin play with an undead minion (a human warrior skeleton (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm)). Obtaining this minion takes 24 hours and uses up magical materials that cost 100 gp.
This creature is a loyal servant that follows the necromancer's commands and accompanies her on adventures if desired. If the skeletal minion is destroyed, the necromancer suffers no ill effects and may replace it by performing a ceremony identical to the one that allowed her to obtain her first servant.
At 1st level, the skeleton is completely typical, but it gains power as the necromancer gains levels. The skeleton has a number of Hit Dice equal to the necromancer's class level. Add one-half the necromancer's class level to the skeleton's natural armor bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#naturalArmorBonus). Add one-third of the necromancer's class level to the skeleton's Strength and Dexterity scores.

A necromancer using this variant permanently gives up the ability to obtain a familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#familiars).

Undead Apotheosis (Ex)

As a necromancer using this variant progresses in levels, she gains some of the qualities that typify undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) creatures.
At 5th level, the necromancer gains a +2 bonus on all saving throws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#savingThrows) made to resist sleep, stun, paralysis, poison, or disease. This bonus increases to +4 at 15th level.
At 10th level, the necromancer gains a +4 bonus on saving throws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#savingThrows) made to resist ability damage, ability drain, or energy drain.
At 20th level, the necromancer gains 25% resistance to critical hits, as the light fortification (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#fortification) armor special ability.

A necromancer using this variant does not gain bonus feats for advancing as a wizard.

Enhanced Undead (Ex)

Any time a necromancer using this variant creates an undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) creature (such as with animate dead, create undead, or create greater undead), all undead creatures created gain a +4 enhancement bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#enhancementBonus) to Strength and Dexterity, and two additional hit points per Hit Die. This ability does not affect the number or Hit Dice of animated creatures that the necromancer can create or control.

A necromancer using this variant does not gain additional spells per day for being a specialist wizard.
-----
Those are all strait from the SRD for 3.5, but I don't think they'd cause too much of a problem (if any) in a 3.0 game.

[elmer_jok]

I was thinking about trying to use that variant, but it's up to the DM. It has three things going against it though. 1) My DM said at the start that this was 3.0, core rules only. 2) It's from 3.5. 3) It's from unearthed arcana if I'm not mistaken and he definately wasn't a fan of the over-powered 1st edition unearthed arcana and isn't apt to be a fan of 3.5's version either.

Thank you for the suggestions. I'll take a look at your necromance Link so I can get a good idea of what spells and such to pick up.

My hardest thing is deciding which school of magic I'm willing to give up to specialize in necromancer. I hate giving up any of them.

My dwarven wizard is an abjurer and he gave up enchantment school stating that it was 'pansy elven magic' and vowed never to touch it's school of thought. Instead he focuses on protection, and lately, that's all that's kept him alive.

EDIT: Just got back from looking at your dread necromancer Link... OMFG! (excuse my internet french) What a minion. I'm not familiar with the dread necromancer, but it looks bad to the bone (perhaps even a little broken). I didn't see a spell list anywhere though. What book is that in so I can look it up?

[Benicus]

Libris Mortis.

And yes, I'm going to have to kill Link's broken-ness off at some point....if I can. :evil:
jk

[elmer_jok]

I may just have that book. I'll have to check. The DM has to let me break from core rules at some point.

If he doesn't though, I'll just have to show him what is broken from 3.0. I can't recall all of what is... but, I know a few tricks with haste and the bull strength and true strike and all that.

[Linklegacy77]

Dread Necromancer spell list is in Heroes of Horror. It is like the warmage, necromancy spells only.

If you have to give up two schools, I would recommend Illusion and Enchantment, or Enchantment and Evocation.

Or possibly conjuration, but it has too many other awesome spells besides summoning.

[elmer_jok]

I definately don't want to do without conjuration. Too many cool spells, my thoughts exactly. I don't want to do away with illusion either as it is a powerful tool for a necromancer (not so much with dealing with the dead) and enchantment could be useful too. Evocation is a hard school to give up, but I don't see him being too much of a battle mage in that way. I'd like the more subtle spectral hand/chill touch or spectral hand/ghoul's touch combos.

[Skidrow]

Shoot, I only enjoy playing a wizard type character who doesn't have access to evocation spells. When I play a wizard, I try to come up with clever ways to screw my enemies over.

And yeah, those variants are from the Unearthed Arcana, but I personally don't think it's overpowered. But like you said, it's up to your DM. I hope everything works out.

[elmer_jok]

I'm gonna call and run it by him tonight. I'd really like to have the skeleton minion variation, but don't want to give up my extra spells per day for the other stuff. I'll try by convincing it would be cool, kinda like old school diablo 2 necromancer. I couldn't decide between Illusion and Evocation (only need to give up one) for what school to give up. I wrote down evocation but when I started picking spells, I just couldn't see doing without some stuff, but found myself not wanting any from the Illusion school. I changed my mind and picked Illusion as the barred school. I still refrained from getting all the 'benchmark' spells like fireball, fly, lightning bolt and such and went for a more subtle approach. I picked a few metamagics to help me if I'm silenced or tied up even to escape. I also put two levels into cleric so I'm a Necromancer5/Cleric of Herod (Asgardian)2 with the Travel and Luck domains. I couldn't find any neutral dieties with death as their domain from the Asgardian or Greek Mythos, so I'll never qualify for anything cool like True Necromancer PrC (which my DM may never allow anyhow), but I could turn out pretty awesome.

It's a pretty magic-item light campaign so I just grabbed some scrolls, a few low level wands (detect magic and detect secret doors, cl:1), a couple potions, a Hand of the Mage, and a +1 Ring of Protection. I'll fill in all the miscellaneous stuff before the session tomarrow. Looking back, I guess that isn't exactly magic light, compared to normal standards, but magic light for our campaigns at least ;)

[Skidrow]

Well, that's the cool thing about those variants; you don't have to use all of them. And I definitely think that the skeletal minion variant is what's really attractive about the variants.

And like I said, I hope it all works out.

[elmer_jok]

I like the flavor of my own skeletal lackey doing my bidding.

[Linklegacy77]

Lol, I like the flavor of two skeletal lackey's doing your bidding, one a firbolg, the other a half-ogre.

Don't mess with the firbolg.

[moogle]

A reply, based on a few things I read on an in-depth write up on Necromancy on the WotC forums.

1. The True Necromancer Prestige Class is quite poor. The example given was that if you play a Fighter of equal level, and your Fighter has "Leadership" and his/her cohort is a Wizard, and they take "Leadership" and have a Cleric for a cohort, then your Fighter is bringing more Necromancy to the table than the True Necromancer, and casting more spells per round to boot.

Granted, the general consensus is that cohorts can't take "Leadership", but in that case, a Wizard of equal level takes "Leadership" and their cohort is a Cleric.

The general rule is that being able to cast a single ninth level spell in one class is better than being able to cast a dozen seventh or eight level spells in two classes. The same applies for lower level spells as well (two second level spells are not worth a third or fourth).

I agree with that one, though your mileage may vary.


2. "The Dread Necromancer is a class that is eight levels long. Some people might tell you that at level 20 you become a Lich, but they're lying because the class is only eight levels long." It gets very little respect beyond level eight. That being said, I disagree there - it's not bad, it just has the same problems that any full casters get: You're better off taking a Prestige Class.

The spell list is very good for Necromancy, but it benefits a LOT from being allowed to take Feats and Spells from both "Heroes of Horror" (the book the class itself comes from) and "Libris Mortis". Both are 3.5Ed

The general consensus is that Clerics make the best Necromancers - in truth they tend to make the best anything from a pure mechanics viewpoint, but they can make fantastic Necromancers in any edition, core or otherwise.

I hope that helped instead of coming across as a know-it-all!

[elmer_jok]

No, not at all seeming as a know-it-all. It did indeed help as well.

I'm not too sure how the leadership will be ran in my campaign and the religious implications of having a high level cleric of a diety that allows use of undead as a cohort may not fit for the game. I'll have to walk a fine line in the party I'll be hitching up to. They're primarily good.

Anyhow, thank you for your two cents and relaying what was discussed on wizards. Welcome to the board by the way, I see it's your first post here.

[moogle]

Thank you, it is indeed my first post here.

And yeah, it is true that Evil characters are the best at Necromancy (although oddly enough, the "good lich" variant in Monsters of Faerun gets "Animate Dead" as a spell-like ability, ignoring the [Evil] subtype of the spell. I never understood why animating a dead body is inherently evil when animating a coffee table is not - and considering the damage those tables do to shins in the night, I know which one I'd call evil). Also, many DMs utterly hate Leadership, so it's another case of "Check with this one".

Good luck with convincing the DM to let you play the necromancer, you'll probably find it to be a lot of fun.

[elmer_jok]

He's a character I'm making just in case my current character, a dwarven wizard, bites the dust sometime soon. I probably won't have a chance to run him. The DM suggested the necromancer though, so we'll see.

One of our characters, the fighter/rogue of the party, just got the leadership feat, but he doesn't have any control on just what classes precisely all his followers or the cohort are. He has bonuses to comanding in a mass-battle setting and I beleive he'll get some followers trickling in sometime soon.