PBP Combat

[Benicus]

Is it me or is combat in a PbP game not just quite as...fun, as in a F2F game? It's me isn't it? How do you guyes run PbP combat?

[Doomsmile]

PBP really isn't the best venue for a combat-heavy RPG- that much is ture. While you can spend a lot of time describing your character's actions, the frequent lack of battle grids of the time it takes for people to reply can really bog down combat- especially if you're doing something strange or silly (like using an awl pike or leaping off of a balcony and onto the back of a gargoyal) that requires mechanical adjucation from the GM before you attempt it.

Even so, the fact that you aren't rolling do-or-die dice rolls in front of the rest of the group while they cheer you on does take away 90% of the thrill, though playing though any medium but face-to-face is going to have that problem. Just my two cents.

[LynMars]

I avoid combat in both F2F and PbP myself. I hate running it. Means I have to remember those silly rules. I prefer social interaction.

Still, combat in a RP is a given in most cases. In PbP it does work differently. Slower game time is why I advocate reducing the random encounters and keeping combat to plot-specific instances. There are other ways to gain exp, even in D&D if award story eps.

I also tend to insist when signing people up for RPs that they be able to post often, or they get skipped and do nothing their round, or I pose them in some non-important way. And I will poke players to post if I must. PbP is slow enough without making everyone else in the group wait on 1 guy. RL happens, which is why I make disclaimers like that and give people the opportunity to let me know what's up.

The only time I find PbP boring is when people are sparse and non-descriptive in what they're doing, or rely on stat terminology to describe the combat for them. And not acknowledging other players actions, or what damage the GM's assigned, can be irritating too.

[treehouse]

I guess it's a matter of taste. I really enjoy play-by-post combat (even running it, or should I say especially running it). Sure, it's much slower than face-to-face, but everything about this format is slower.

Not having grids is a problem for me though; I arrived on the D&D scene right before 3.5 was released, so I'm used to the highly tactical aspect of combat. Gridless combat works alright if the DM is descriptive, though.

[LuneMoonshadow]

PbP combat is a whole different creature than F2F. In F2F you roll your dice and get to cry every time it flips over to a 1. You also usually keep track of your own HP and roll your own damage, giving you an immersive feel because you actually keep track of your character's stats.

Here GM's tend to roll for people, though we do have the dice roller. Some inform the players what was rolled and some don't. Maps are also another issue that many GM's don't have much experience with, so most games have black and white maps that aren't very appealing.

To help counteract these things I make all the rolls myself but keep the numbers to myself as well. I choose not to inform my players of how much damage they did, but rather give them a description of how much carnage they have caused. I think this is a bit more realistic and helps the player understand that their actions aren't numbers, but effects. I do tell them their HP, though, so they know whether or not to heal or run away. Only fair, I suppose.

I also spend some time working on my maps, giving them color and life beyond the simple black and white grids with stick figures. It's also a little something to help them get more into combat when they actually see the various colored floorboards of an inn or some other detail. I do it in all in Paint, so they aren't the best maps ever, but I like to think they are pretty.

And lastly, I do away with random combat completely. Fighting pointless battles is a waste of everyone's time and it should be avoided in PbP's, IMO. Every combat should have a distinct purpose, whether it is to introduce a character, a plot twist, or to simply injure the players so they think twice before storming a castle.

My 2 cents.

[LynMars]

Good Description, or using some of the mapping programs out there, or just good old fashion MS Paint for a quickie diagram.

[BigRedRod]

I picked up Campaign Cartographer 3 with the good intentions to make excellent maps. I never really got passed the level of "basic idea of what is happening". It's sad really, I just really lack the artistic talent for it. Or maybe there is some big tileset and tutorial resource I'm overlooking.

[treehouse]

I really want to get Campaign Cartographer 3 just so I'll have a utility for world maps. Dundjinni is perfect for the up-close stuff, but it just doesn't cut it at wider scales.

[hedgeknight]

Is it me or is combat in a PbP game not just quite as...fun, as in a F2F game? It's me isn't it? How do you guyes run PbP combat?

Yes, it's you. ;)

LOVE IT! I really do - it can be a little tedius, but the great thing about PbP combat is that you, as a DM, have time to figure everything out and write it up so that your players can "see" what's happening. I love doing that. I like the challenge of finding new ways to say, "Bob attacked the orc with his sword and killed it."

Maps can really help move combat along - visuals are VITAL to good PbP combat. Gotta have 'em. And you don't have to be a digital Picasso to do 'em up right. I use Microsoft Paint and try to be as descriptive as possible. I figure if I give my players an illustration with some narrative, their minds can do the rest. Unless we're drinking...then it can REALLY get crazy! :nod:

One more thing and I'll shut up, in combat, posting frequency should be stepped up. Normally, I don't wait days for players to post actions if we are in combat - just ask my players in Quick Post Scenarios! They'll tell you! Right, fellers? LOL Combat should be as fast and furious as possible and to get close to the tabletop version, players need to post often. By often I mean DAILY or faster! In our last scenario we had three combat posts in one day! It just happened to work out that way for us, but it sure was a hell of a lot of fun that day.
-g-

[Gralhruk]

I think f2f combat is all about rolling the dice. There is great joy in slinging that D20 up against the DM screen and finding out if you are the hero or dragon food. PbP, as previously mentioned, is a bit different.

It most certainly isn't about rolling the dice - that kind of thrill isn't there. Even if you make your own rolls with a dice roller, clicking a button just isn't the same thing. And frankly, even if your DM trusts you to roll your own dice, you still don't get the same insane joy out of it as you would real time in a group setting. There is something about the fast pace and the anticipation of face to face die rolling that is a blast. You just can't get that in a PbP.

PbP combat, on the other hand, offers the opportunity to write about life and death, about horrible injury, about what it takes to drive three feet of pointed steel into another living being, about regret and tragedy, fear, remorse, iron will, survival; it is about victory snatched from the jaws of death and the animal in all of us. It doesn't get more emotionally charged than that. If you enjoy PbP as a creative outlet, then combat is a fine place to examine a character and figure out what they are made of.

[elmer_jok]

I see the advantage in both types of games, but PbP is (in my opinion) the most descriptive way to do it. In the f2f games it goes faster, but the lack of detail can make it too routine - too boring. In PbP you can get the visual aspect going alot more than the table top because, like coffee said, your DM gets more time to think of how he'll describe the results. If anyone wants a good example of a combat scenario in PbP... check here. We've been having a blast in the quick post scenarios and they're 90% focused on combat and action. We've been talking about setting up an actual campaign, but I'm sure it will stay action orientated. Coffee also gives a great example of how to make the players really 'see' what's going on.

Sorry to put you up on a pedestal Coffee. It's just the best example I can point out so far, albiet from my limited exposure to PbP gaming. I'm sure though, that you're up among the top as far as DMs go here. There are also good DMs around, don't get me wrong, he's just the best example I can point out. (Given, I'm only in a small handful of games. Nobody take offense if I'm in your game and didn't point you out.)

My 2 and a half cents.

[hedgeknight]

Sorry to put you up on a pedestal Coffee. It's just the best example I can point out so far, albiet from my limited exposure to PbP gaming. I'm sure though, that you're up among the top as far as DMs go here. There are also good DMs around, don't get me wrong, he's just the best example I can point out.

And to think I was planning on Almego getting swallowed whole by a giant swamp toad in the next scenario! Might have to save that one.....for later. :evil:
As always, thanks for your comments JoK - very much appreciated.
-g-

[elmer_jok]

Not a toad!!!!

[Benicus]

Thanks for your advice guyes!

And visuals really are part of the PbP combat game I've noticed more this week running a small time combat encounter in Lost Kingdom, and I need to step that up. I'll use Dundjinii to make maps I think since I got it around Christmas and haven't felt the need to use it 'till now.

Another thing in combat though that I've noticed (again probablly just my games [meaning my dm'd games]) is that combat can tend to be either uninformative about the situation or giving away too much and not being entertaining. When I try running combat I tend to give just a standard "You enter x room which is x by y and contains monsters z, q, and u, what do you do?" But when I think about giving a more...colorful, post it would end up not giving enough information to be good strategically. What's the good midground?

[hedgeknight]

I'll use Dundjinii to make maps I think since I got it around Christmas and haven't felt the need to use it 'till now.

What's the good midground?

Dundjinnii is the shit! Check out this guy's maps he created with it: http://www.danielrivera.org/maps.htm

As for your question about "midground" description leading into combat, here's an exerpt from my Bloodcurse campaign which ended a couple of years ago. I apologize for the length, but I tend to be a little wordy. :P

The forest is very quiet. Too quiet, Raven thinks as he eases around thick brush and steps over a fallen log. He thought he was alone, but spied Hrull skulking off to his right a few moments ago. He hasn't seen the wolf since, but he knows she is there and that makes him less nervous. For 450 yards, the elf makes almost no sound as he winds through the trees and brambles, climbing over rocks and avoiding deadfalls, picking his way toward the cave. Every sense he has is alert and straining for the slightest sound, movement, or clue that might reveal a potential threat. He spies the dark maw of the cave through the gloom of the trees. The moonlight casting shadows through the limbs to reveal the cave which disappears back into the hillside. Large trees stand guard all around the cave mouth, along with several rocks and one huge boulder near the entrance. For nearly 30 minutes, Raven watches the cave. Nothing moves but bare tree branches swayed by the wind. He decides to move closer.
Thirty feet on and he can smell the cave. A dank, musky odor wafts from the gloom and he wonders about the chained "thing" within. He passes back to the right, moving from tree to tree, staying in as much shadow as possible. All the while, his eyes and ears strain for hidden dangers. But, the danger he isn't expecting is right before him, and as he takes three steps toward another large oak, the ground beneath him gives way!
As soon as he feels is feet sink, Raven knows he's in trouble. He dives forward as the thin layer of leaves and sticks falls into the pit and slams into the ground, digging his fingers into the cold ground and his toes into the wall of the pit. He slides a few inches but manages to stop his descent, his arm muscles screaming as they support his weight. His foot finds an exposed root and he actually pushes himself up a bit, digging his elbows into the ground as his fingers grope for rocks or tree roots, anything to keep him from sliding back down. And as he looks toward the cave, a set of reddish eyes blink and begin to move toward him from out of the darkness.......

Just as example of a wilderness encounter; will offer up a dungeon room for you if you want.
My advice Benicus is read, read, READ good fantasy and practice your descriptive writing. As much as I hate to admit it, R.A. Salvatore writes great melee - his Crystal Shard trilogy put him on "the map" for combat. You may also want to consider John Marco's Tyrants and Kings trilogy, anything by George R.R. Martin, anything by David Gemmell - read Legend now! - and don't forget about Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman's Dragonlance saga.
Just keep writing brother - practice, practice!
-g-

[Benicus]

I've read the Dark Elf Trilogy by Salvatore and The Crystal Shard's first book and yes they are very good in making combat a good read. I'll be sure to check out those other books too, but for the moment I've been reading Robert E. Howard's Conan stuff and that stuff is the shit.
And yes, Dundjinni is the shit.
If you wouldn't mind putting up dungeon room one I wouldn't mind reading it.
Thanks for your advice! :)

[hedgeknight]

Damn straight - R.E.H. is freaking incredible. Waaay ahead of his time.

Here is the dungeon excerpt:

Cerebus creeps forward, watching for traps and anything else of interest, taking full advantage of the Redeemer's powers to spot any danger. The corridor winds for what seems like forever, sloping downward at first, and then levelling out. From what you can tell, the roughly hewn tunnel is bearing northwest, following the path of the Burning Blade. Cademon, only a few feet behind the paladin, can sense the weapon as if it were a will-o-wisp floating across a foggy moor. He can also sense the Statue of Kane just a few yards behind him. This brings a smile to the bard's face, but it is fleeting as Cerebus hisses and suddenly drops to the ground.
Raven and Cademon do likewise and so do the rest of you, dousing and hiding any light source, hoping that you already didn't give away your presence. For several minutes, you do not move nor make a sound. It is pitch dark (for most of you without darkvision) and stifling in the tunnel, but occasionally there is a waft of air, fleeting and beckoning. Cerebus passes the word behind and eventually the same message reaches each of you: move ahead slowly, weapons and spells ready.
And so you do, until you are all crowded around the end of the tunnel and the entrance to a large underground cavern. (See attached map - this is the map I used for visual reference)

The cavern is at least 50 feet across from where you are and runs both north and south, disappearing into the darkness. Large stalagmites rise up from the floor and their stalactite twins loom down from the shadowed ceiling. How high the ceiling is, you just do not know. The "plunk" of dripping water echoes throughout the seemingly endless cavern, but other than that, the silence is as thick as the darkness. Cerebus calls Cademon to his side. "What do you see out there bard? And which way do we go?"
Cademon takes a good look, calling upon his draconic heritage to point out things concealed or skewed from the naked eye. At first glance neither he nor Cerebus spot anything amiss. Raven comes alongside, as does Kintaro, and the sharp-eyed Elves pick out a heat source several feet to the north. When they describe its location, Cademon is able to hone in on it.
"It's a purple shrieker! I think. From this distance it's hard to tell."
"Where there's one, there's bound to be others," Raven grimaces.
"What are purple shriekers?" Jimmy whispers, having overheard the conversation.
"They are large mushrooms that serve as guardians." Endrin whispers. "If they detect movement within their range, they emit a piercing shriek that can be heard for miles, especially in caverns."
Kintaro and Raven and also Cademon spy several others positioned along the cavern walls.
"What do you think, Cerebus?" Kintaro asks. "What do we do now?"
Cerebus peers into the darkness until his eyes burn. He still cannot see the fungi guardians. He rubs them and says, "Cademon, where is the Burning Blade?"
"Due west from where we are. Or at least that's what I'm feeling. It's odd though, because the cavern wall is directly across from us. Except it seems to bend and possibly twist into another passage. What do you think, Cerebus?"
"We keep pushin' on!" Cerebus whispers fiercely. "Those with darkvision and detection abilities are going to have to help those of us who are less gifted. Let's work out a plan, pick a path, and get going. It will be dawn soon and I wish to hail the first rays of the Morninglord as we destroy that damned Keep and its equally damned Hunt Lords!"
"Uh, Cerebus," Kintaro says, barely breathing. "I would stop moving around if I were you."
"Why? What are you talking about?"
The archer says nothing. Instead his eyes shift slightly to the left. Cerebus and Cademon follow his gaze and gasp in shock. Barely ten feet away, in a slight depression in the cavern wall, stands a shrieker.

There you go. Hope that helps a little bit too.
-g-

[Benicus]

Cool thanks Coffee! :)

[elmer_jok]

Check my game out for a glimpse into a very confusing, but interesting fight in the Inn.

[Skidrow]

As much as I hate to admit it, R.A. Salvatore writes great melee - his Crystal Shard trilogy put him on "the map" for combat. You may also want to consider John Marco's Tyrants and Kings trilogy, anything by George R.R. Martin, anything by David Gemmell - read Legend now! - and don't forget about Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman's Dragonlance saga.
Just keep writing brother - practice, practice!
-g-

I second Salvatore, Marco, and Weis and Hickman (I haven't read any Martin or Gemmell, though I've seen them reccommended a lot). Marco's Lukien Trilogy (The Eyes of God, The Devil's Armor, and The Sword of Angels)is an excellent read, and it describes one-on-one and mass combat very well. And when I think of combat in Dragonlance (which is a wonderful series), I think of the fight in Xak Tsaroth with the cauldron-elevator.

I myself haven't had much of a chance to run combat, but I am looking forward to it. I'll let you know how it goes soon enough.

[LeadPal]

Maps are also another issue that many GM's don't have much experience with, so most games have black and white maps that aren't very appealing.Interestingly it was the opposite for me; I started off making beautiful full-colour maps, but because they were taking far too long to make I had to tone it down to plain-jane grids. (Mind you, I did keep them colour-coded.)

I find far more pleasure in PbP combat than in F2F. There's no comparison--my love for writing has now surpassed my love for flinging dice. I've managed to expunge most of the confusing, artsy crap that used to be my trademark, and although the pressure to post quickly can leave some textual sloppiness (like so :yum:), I still find it preferable to the sloppy battles I had to churn out every week to sate my F2F players. In PbP I can come up with properly balanced, tactically challenging encounters; far more satisfying than what I used to produce on demand.

[itches]

Hmm, I don't think this needs a d20 tag. Removing it.

[Cadrius]

My advice Benicus is read, read, READ good fantasy and practice your descriptive writing. As much as I hate to admit it, R.A. Salvatore writes great melee - his Crystal Shard trilogy put him on "the map" for combat. You may also want to consider John Marco's Tyrants and Kings trilogy, anything by George R.R. Martin, anything by David Gemmell - read Legend now! - and don't forget about Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman's Dragonlance saga.
Just keep writing brother - practice, practice!
-g-

To pose a parallel thought here: read bad fantasy too. Oh, don't waste too much time with it, but it's just as important to know what you don't like as what you do. Moreover, seeing how one author might falter can give you ideas on how to improve upon it.

And don't just read fantasy. Read everything. The broader your scope, the more you can learn: mystery, sci fi, horror, westerns, romance (yes, romance). Every genre can teach you something. It may not necessarily have to do with combat, but there are always gems to be discovered.

[SinbadEV]

Steven King sais in "On Writing" a very similar thing, something to the effect of "Read poorly written books, for at the very least to convince yourself 'Hey, I can write better then this, and someone actually payed money for this garbage.'"

[-J-]

Personally I like PbP combat more than I like F2F combat. I feel that the role playing, description, and internal monologuing that goes on in a PbP fray more than makes up for its slow response rate.

[elmer_jok]

I guess there's certain aspects of each style that appeal to me. I like the PbP for it's descriptiveness and I like the F2F for it's pace.

[zachol]

Meh.

As a DM, when I'm not in combat, I'm like "hey, we should do a combat, this is boring," and when I am, I'm like "agh why is this taking an hour and a half to do??"

Thus, I've mixed feelings on the whole thing.


I have found it funner if all dice rolls are noted, though.
I used to not, then realized that when other DMs did in other games, I liked it.
*shrug*

[BigRedRod]

As a DM, when I'm not in combat, I'm like "hey, we should do a combat, this is boring," and when I am, I'm like "agh why is this taking an hour and a half to do??"

Thus, I've mixed feelings on the whole thing.
This about sums me up too. I think this is why Inceptum does well though, it's combat intensive using a combat system which gives us lots of options. Nobody is just essentially coming up with interesting ways to say "I attack the orc with my longsword" we get to really be involved with the combat.

Or perhaps I'm just a massive Iron Heroes fanboy.

[zachol]

The bottleneck (for me) is making a map.

Example: Klotho had a battle on a boat.
I took... a really, really long time to take a map of a boat from the WotC website and erase out the little numbers, then fudge out a corner of a legend that wasn't needed, then combine the main deck with the two raised portions at either end.

Then I actually got the combat going, and it ended up lasting... 3? maybe 4 rounds before I threw in the deus ex machina for sending the PCs to the next portion of the campaign.
I swear, when they get a boat again, it's going to be exactly like the boat they started with.

And, of course, in the combat, I was reduced to just sticking "C"s and "1"s or "2"s in for the various characters in the combat.


So yeah, I think one of the things I'd work on is making the map portion easy to deal with.
I (at least) would probably be a lot happier during combats, and they'd probably go faster, which would result in good things for the characters.

[Darius]

This about sums me up too. I think this is why Inceptum does well though, it's combat intensive using a combat system which gives us lots of options. Nobody is just essentially coming up with interesting ways to say "I attack the orc with my longsword" we get to really be involved with the combat.

Or perhaps I'm just a massive Iron Heroes fanboy.

You are not your magic weapon and armor. You are not your spell buffs. You are not how much gold you have, or how many times you've been raised from the dead. When a Big Bad Demon snaps your sword in two, you do not cry because that was your holy avenger. You leap onto its back, climb up to its head, and punch it in the eye, then get a new damn sword off of the next humanoid you headbutt to death.
Iron Heroes. Yeah, it's that awesome.

From the Boards over at iron-league.com (http://iron-league.com). At some point tree will be running a 10th level duel between an IH character and a D&D core character. Should be interesting.