[D&D] Shurikens...

[elmer_jok]

I have a question about shurikens, well two actually. I was hoping somebody could shine some light on the subject.

1) Can you add your strength modifier to thrown shurikens?

and

2) Don't you get to throw 3 per attack?

I know that in 3.0 you could not add your strength modifier to thrown shurikens, but you could throw 3 per attack. Did this change in 3.5 cause I didn't see any mention of these issues in the SRD.

[Dusty Trails]

I'm quite curious about that too. I expected the strength modifier to be added, but I've never head of throwing 3 per attack. If that's the case, they actually become useful.

[BigRedRod]

I think they did away with the three per attack and no strength modifier bonus nonsense in the .5 update. They're now a normal thrown weapon. Unless the PHB says something different to the SRD, but my PHB is buried somewhere in the cupboard of games.

[treehouse]

BRR is almost correct. They are just like normal thrown weapons, except that they count as ammunition. What this means is that they can be drawn as a free action, as if the user had Quick Draw. It also means that you enchant them in bundles rather than individually, like you would with knives.

[Mercutio]

1) Yes - like any other thrown weapon
2) No - like any other thrown weapon

Shurikens are treated like ammunition in regards to picking them up after being thrown as well as determining iterative attacks.


A shuriken is a special monk (http://d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm) weapon. This designation gives a monk wielding shuriken special options. A shuriken can’t be used as a melee weapon.
Although they are thrown weapons (http://d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#thrownWeapons), shuriken are treated as ammunition (http://d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#ammunition) for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork (http://d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#masterworkWeapons) or otherwise special versions of them and what happens to them after they are thrown.

[elmer_jok]

Thanks for the clarifications. I thought that was the way it'd be ruled, but I just recently transfered from 3.0 to 3.5 and the way they were in that version were as I stated above.

I'm thinking of a master-thrower build using shurikens for the flavor of it.

[Doomsmile]

Yah, shuikens kinda' suck now. They used to be way too abusable by shuriken specialists, but now they're rather useless to anyone but (arguably) a monk (who would usually preffer to close into melee, if I'm not mistaken).

[Dusty Trails]

1) Do you think I would get the ninja quick-strike damage bonus when using attacks of opportunity with the shuriken and
2) do I have to announce the free action of drawing the shuriken at the beginning of the round or can they be drawn and fired in-media-rez when an opportunity presents itself?

[Mercutio]

1) Barring some very specific feats or class abilities, you can't make attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon. However, if you were using the shuriken during a regular attack and qualified for sudden strike damage (on your turn, not during an AoO, as stated above) you can get the sudden strike bonus damage dice.

2) Shuriken follow the rules of ammunition. That means you can draw and throw as you wish, just like a bow and arrow.

[Takkaryx]

I think the fact that shurikens can be bundled for magic weapon enchantment and you get to add strength mod to damage balences out the three per attack. Also, remember: If you are making a full attack action, even with ranged, you can't move except for a five foot step.

[BigRedRod]

Read the thread. You don't get three per attack anymore.

[Linklegacy77]

Since historically, shuriken were used to knock enemies off guard and hit them when they are off balance: effectively distractions, I allow them to be used for ranged feints, which I'll explain later.

Shuriken were not used to kill: they were used to distract foes. Their blades weren't really large enough to kill easily, they could still wound, so foes would have to avoid it. When the wielder wanted to kill at range, he would use throwing knives, not shuriken.

[BigRedRod]

I think that is one of those "little known facts" that everybody knows :)

The problem is that it is a bit tricky to work that kind of thing into the d20 combat system. It'd need a concentration roll or something to avoid slowing down. Then again, ranged feints could be a half decent work around.

[Linklegacy77]

Well, it is an exotic weapon, it deserves some kind of benefit.

[elmer_jok]

Well if you're a rogue and have invested the proper feats to the shuriken art you could get some really good damage out of them. SA with the shurikens in the first round while your oppenent is flat-footed, substitute some of the damage for the crippling strike, and you've got your slow down effect. Albeit, throwing knives or daggers would do more damage, but like they said above, it's considered amunition so you could get 50 +5 shurikens for the price of one +5 dagger.

[Linklegacy77]

Right, but that +5 dagger isn't destroyed after attacking with it, and you can give it returning or even teleporting.

Here's my current ruleset for shuriken and feinting:

A character may feint at range in combat using shuriken. Make a ranged attack against the target. If it beats the opponents AC, it deals damage as normal and allows for the feint. If it just beats the opponents touch AC, then it deals no damage but still allows for the feint. Make a bluff check as if feinting in combat. If your opponent fails to resist, your next attack treats him as flat-footed. You may only feint with a shuriken once per round. It takes a standard action to feint with a shuriken, regardless of whether you have Improved Feint or not. You may combine this action with a full attack action. You may only feint with a shuriken if you are within 30 feet of the target.

[elmer_jok]

I like your feinting rule for the shurikens link.

Albeit though that you could add the returning to the dagger, it doesn't return until right before your action of the next round. So to take advantage of your full lot of attacks you'd need 3 or four of them, all with returning. But, yes, the ammunition is destroyed when they hit and 50% of the time when they miss so you'll have to keep rebuying more shurikens every adventure or every other adventure. I'd think the only reason to use shurikens over daggers would be the flavor of it. Too bad I'm not gonna be available to participate in the gladiator tourney though, or you'd see just how deadly they could be! Maybe if another tourney is runnin when I get back, then I'll have a chance.

[Linklegacy77]

Thanks ej, any other opinions on it?

[elmer_jok]

well, ya actually.

seeing as how other weapons that are especially useful for certain tasks add a +2 to said tasks (i.e. flail giving +2 to disarm, nunchuku giving +2 disarm, etc.) maybe the shuriken should give a +2 to the fient checks?

just a thought.

[akiko]

That would be cool. Due to their ammunition-like nature and relative size to the thrower most attackees never see them coming.

[Linklegacy77]

Alright, a +2 on bluff checks when feinting in combat.

[elmer_jok]

Yay! I helped make a rule! Yay! Rathius is gonna have to start using them, or maybe just let him die and make a monk...

[Doomsmile]

I am so instituting this rule... the moment I get a D&D game running...

[Takkaryx]

Read the thread. You don't get three per attack anymore.

Yes, but the trade off is STR damage and ammunition status. I think it balences out. I guess I wasn't clear. Also, as ammo, I think you can poision them as a bundle, too. And what good ninja would be without poision?

[nightinverse]

A good ninja, probably.

Yes, it does seem to balance out. Ammunition status saves on alterations, STR bonus turns it into a comfortable replacement ranged weapon.

I've allowed ranged trip attempts at a significant penalty for shuriken on occasion. A nice -4 to -8 penalty balances out that variant.

[Takkaryx]

A goodly chucked shurikan can break someone's leg, so I wouldn't give it penalties stricly, but would base it on size catigory, and how many legs it has.

[nightinverse]

That is why I have a range of penalties. Trying to trip something with more than six operative legs with a ranged weapon of that size merely doesn't work. At six I give a -8, at four a -6 and at two a -4. Size is already factored in through racial AC bonuses - but nothing more than a size category above you can be tripped by a normal ranged attack.