Gladiator Tournament II - Rules Preview & Discussion

[Black Plauge]

Sign ups are closed! Click here to be taken to the Sign-Up thread to see the entrants. (http://online-roleplaying.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6720)

Three rounds remain in the Arcane tournament, so it's time to start getting things ready for the next contest: Gladiator Tournament II.

Below you will find a preview of the rules, and I'm currently considering implementing them. There are quite a few changes from the last tournament. Some were made in reponse to issues that arrose there, others to compensate for the differing level of the tournament this time around. I'm posting them now to give people a chance to provide feedback on them before character creation begins.

Changes, if needed, will be marked in red.

* * * * *

Glatiator Tournament II: The Professionals

IC Announcement
Here ye, here ye! The great and humble Duke Soloth of Wildenberg is holding a gladiator tournament. Gladiators of all races and styles are invited to compete in an event that will test their mettle and win them great fame. Contestants will have to prove their mettle by surviving a match in which they are pitted against a creature from the arena stables, so only serious competitors need apply.

OOC Rules
The tournament will be run and moderated solely by me (Black Plauge). I will arrange the matches, adjudicate them, roll all the dice, determine all the results...which will be made public within these boards. I am functioning as "DM" for the match, and adjudicating all OOC matters. IC matters are adjudicate by the various IC judges (mentioned below in reference to their respective areas of responsibility).

Matches will take place on a play-by-post basis. From when the match starts, participants will have 24 hours to post their move, starting from when the moderator (myself) posts the beginning of the match, or the results of the opponent's last move. Weekends are excepted from this rule, extending the time frame to the same time on Monday that it would have been on Saturday. If the match is updated over the weekend, then the next player has until Tuesday at the time of the weekend update to post their move.

Failing to post on time forfeits your actions during that round. Victors in earlier rounds will have a full 24 in-game hours to rest, be healed, pray and rememorize (as needed) prior to the next day's match. While each round of the Tournament will proceed simultaneously, in reality they're taking place over the course of an afternoon.

While the IC announcement invites gladiators of all races and styles, it also indicates that competitors will be divided into classes according to ability and size. I will only be running the tournament for one class at this time. Please see the rules below for the restrictions on characters.

A board member may submit up to two gladiators to compete. However, because the tournament is double elimination, if more than 16 board members sign up to participate, I may ask those with two entries to drop one so that this tournament doesn't last forever.

IC Rules
The Tournament
The qualifying round will consist of a grand melee with all contestants in the arena at once. The battle will last 1 minute (10 rounds) during which contestants will do what they can to impress the crowd.

Double elimination, bracketed tournament (See previous tournament bracket). Seeding will be based on Crowd Attitude Score after the qualifying round. Note: Since the tournament is double elimination the Loser’s Bracket winner must beat the Winner’s Bracket winner twice in order to be champion. The Winner’s Bracket winner need only beat the Loser’s Bracket Winner once.

The first round of all matches is for introductions and showmanship to influence crowds (normally a Perform (weapon drill) check, but other forms of showmanship are allowed). In all matches the monster will be restrained during this round via an appropriate hold spell. This round will not count towards the time limit of the grand melee.

As a result of first round, there is no surprise round and neither contestant is flat-footed when combat begins on round 2.

During the first 3 rounds of combat (round 2, 3, & 4), all damage dealt must be non-lethal damage. These participants are supposed to be professional gladiators and it is unprofessional to kill a fellow gladiator. This non-lethal damage provides an additional buffer beyond the normal negative hit point range to ensure that all gladiators survive their match.
In the case of a gladiator violating this rule, said gladiator will suffer the crowd attitude penalty for cheating and their opponent will be the recipient of sufficent healing to remove the damage before the match is allowed to continue. The cost of said healing will be charged to the offending gladiator.

At the end of the tournament, if there is a clear fan favorite (i.e. the competitor with the highest crowd attitude, with a tie for this position nullifying the effect.), and they are not the champion, they will be granted a bonus match against the champion to unseat them.


Character Creation
32 Point Buy
ECL 17
Familiars, animal companions, and special mounts are permitted, but cohorts are not.
Characters must be medium or small in size. Note: Using alternate form or similar effects to assume the form of a creature outside of this size range for the duration of the match is considered to be the same as being large or larger and therefore not allowed (an individual using such tactics would be promoted to the appropriate size class). Size change effects are limited to five rounds in duration.
HP will follow the RPGA standard (max on first HD, half die size +1 for rest).
Spellcasters with a spellbook or similar artifact must submit a list of spells in their spellbook with their character. Characters should have a reasonable number of spells, listings of “all spells of 2nd level and lower” and the like will be disqualified.
Templates are prohibited.
The point of this match is for all participants to have fun, as such, participants are encouraged to build varied and interesting characters, and not simply try to build to win. To encourage this, any board member can raise an objection to a participant on the grounds of them being overpowered and an unfair match up for the other opponents. This objection is subject to review by me. If I deem the objection to have merit I can, at my sole discretion, either force the participant be revised to fix the violation or outright disqualify them. Objections can be raised through the end of the qualifying round. I also reserve the right to force revisions or disqualify competitors I deem unfair even without a board member objecting. Once the bracketed matches begin, the contestants are set and objections will no longer be entertained. (What is happening IC when a character is disqualified in this manner is that the character is being reassigned to a different class.)
In addition to a full character sheet, participants are encouraged to select a miniature representation for their character from the D&D Miniatures line (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mix/gallery), the Dreamblade Minatures line (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dbm/gallery&page=1), or the D&D Chainmail line (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=minis/ch20010823b, with the links on the side enabling access to the rest of the collection). When selecting a miniature, please indicate which series it is from so that I can double check it online to make sure I’ve got the right one. Participants can also supply a small bitmap file from another source if they prefer. If supplying your own image, please bear in mind the resolution limits of the maps.
All characters must have maximum ranks in either Perform (Weapon Drill) or Profession (Gladiator). Characters for this round are supposed to be professional gladiators.
All characters must have a “signature” which is unique to them. A signature can consist of an unusual armament set, a tactical feat, a weapon style feat, or a PrC fighting style. Signatures must be declared when characters are submitted. Signatures are subject to review for visibility and uniqueness and, in the case of two persons requesting the same signature, granted on a first come first serve basis.

Allowed Resources
Player's HandBook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual, eXpanded Psionics Handbook, Complete Arcane, Complete adVenturer, Complete Divine, Complete Warrior, Complete Psionic, Draconomicon, Libris Mortis, Planar Handbook, Races of Stone, Races of Destiny.
While the Book of Exalted Deeds is not an allowed resource, the feats Resounding Blow and Subduing Strike, and the nonlethal weapons which appear in that book, will be permitted.


The Arena
All matches take place in the full arena.

Full Arena Setup: 5' square obstructions: low wall (10), high wall (10), low platform (10), high platform (10), and rocky debris (30); 10' square obstructions: high wall (5), tall walls (5), tall hedge (5), low platform (5), and high platform (5); Neutral creatures: constructs (2) and chained monsters (2).

Low obstructions are 2 ½' tall. Diagonal moves past a low obstruction are allowed for any creature of medium or larger size. Smaller creatures must go around as if rounding a corner. Note: Walls which are oriented in the direction of travel are an exception to this rule. Any creature may move diagonally along the wall.

High obstructions are 5' tall. Diagonal moves past a high obstruction are allowed for any creature of large or larger size. Smaller creatures must go around as if rounding a corner. Note: Walls which are oriented in the direction of travel are an exception to this rule. Any creature may move diagonally along the wall.

Tall obstructions are 10' tall. Diagonal moves past a tall obstruction are allowed for any creature of gargantuan or larger size. Smaller creatures must go around as if rounding a corner. Note: Walls which are oriented in the direction of travel are an exception to this rule. Any creature may move diagonally along the wall.

Chained monsters are confined to a 10' radius circle (i.e large animals must remain adjacent to the stake that holds them down, medium creatures can have one empty square between them and this stake, huge animals must remain over that stake) and will attack anyone entering its reach (barring some outside influence). The chain can be broken (Str DC 26, Hardness 10, 5 hp) to free the monster, in which case it will attack the closest other being, competitor or monster (again, barring some outside influence). Monsters are chosen from the following list: Dire Elephant, Dire Bear, Elephant, Dire Elk, Tyrannosaurus, Triceratops, Dire Tiger, Gaspar, Bulette, Chimera, Dragonne, Gray Glutton, Remorhaz, Behir, Gorgon, Gray Render, Yrthak.

Constructs have orders to stay within a 10' radius circle and attack any competitor they can reach. Constructs are chosen from the following list: Clay Golem, Flesh Golem, Stone Golem, Shield Guardian, Grave Dirt Golem, level 7 Ectopic form astral construct, level 6 astral construct created by a Constructor, and Warforged Titan.

Neither chained monsters, nor constructs will be present in the arena during the grand melee.

Walls and hedges may be oriented in any cardinal direction (N-S, E-W, NE-SW, or NW-SE), chosen randomly at the beginning of the match. 5' walls can be rotated as a standard action. 10' walls can be rotated as a full-round action. Hedges can only be rotated by an individual with Str 22 or higher (i.e one with sufficient strength to drag them). Doing so takes a full-round action. Tall walls cannot be rotated.

Standing or walking on top of a wooden wall requires a DC 15 Balance check.

Standing or walking on top of the Tall Wall (which is made of stone) requires a DC 10 Balance check.

Standing or walking on top of a hedge requires a DC 25 Balance check.

Climbing to the top of the Keeper’s building is a DC 20 Climb check. It is 10ft tall.

The moat is 15' deep, and filled with very murky water. A creature 5ft underwater has concealment from any attacks out of the water. A creature 10ft underwater has total concealment. Creatures underwater have concealment from other creatures 5ft away from them and total concealment from creatures 10ft away from them. This is in addition to the normal rules for underwater combat in the DMG.

Climbing the exterior wall is a DC 20 Climb check. It is 20ft tall. Archers stationed on the wall will fire on anyone attempting to climb it.

Walls (except for the tall wall) and platforms are made of wood and can be moved by the contestants. Picking one up is a standard action, and a character’s subsequent movement is constrained by their load.

Dragging is a full round action that allows a character to move the object a distance equal to their speed. Given the surface of the arena grounds, a character can drag up to 4 times their maximum load.

5' low walls weigh 45 lbs. 5' high walls weigh 90 lbs. 5' low platforms weigh 270 lbs. 5' high platforms weigh 450 lbs. 10' high walls weigh 180 lbs. 10' low platforms weigh 1080 lbs. 10' high platforms weigh 1800 lbs. Hedges are potted and weigh 2000 lbs. Tall walls are made of stone and cannot be moved.

Location of obstructions is determined randomly before each match.

Contestants’ starting position (and the starting position for familiars and/or animal companions, if applicable) is chosen randomly.

Map Keys:
http://online-roleplaying.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1180&d=1160933252
http://online-roleplaying.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1181&d=1160933293

Crowd Attitude
Whether for profit or to distract the masses, the purpose of any gladiator match is to entertain the masses. If the masses don’t like what they see, then they won’t keep coming to the games. In order to simulate this and encourage participants to play to the crowd, all participants will have a crowd attitude score, which is a measure of how well liked (or hated) a gladiator is by the fictional crowd that attends the matches. Having a high score provides a gladiator with certain benefits, while having a low one penalizes them (see table).

The crowd starts the tournament with Attitude 0 towards all competitors.

Actions in table below during the matches affect crowd attitude (all changes are 1 step unless otherwise indicated).

Other flashy actions will be considered at my discretion. Actions I approve will be added to the table.

While toying with your opponent can be entertaining to the crowd, the same action over and over again is boring. As such, you will only receive a crowd attitude bonus for a particular type of action once until at least 2 other crowd attitude modifications take place (either by you or your opponent).

In order to prevent gladiators from digging themselves a hole they can’t get out of, or putting themself so high up that they don’t have to worry about falling, only half of a gladiator’s attitude score carries over from match to match.

A beloved gladiator who is raised starts the next match with Attitude 0 (See rules on recovery between matches below).

In addition to the fictional crowd, there is also the crowd of other board members following the matches. In order to gauge their reactions to the competitors each match will also be a poll, allowing board members to pick their favorite competitor. Poll options will contain both a positive and negative evaluation of each competitor and multiple selections will be allowed. The poll will remain open for two days after the conclusion of the match to allow board members the chance to vote after seeing the entirety of the match. When the voting closes the competitor will receive a modification to their crowd attitude score equal to the number of positive evaluations they receive minus the number of negative evaluations they receive. This modification will occur before their carry over to the next round is calculated.

Actions which affect Crowd’s Attitude
Situation Check Consequence
Gladiator whiffs Attack roll less than Attitude towards gladiator worsens
10+opponents Dex and
dodge bonuses
Gladiator rolls — Attitude towards gladiator worsens 2 steps
natural 1 on
attack roll
Gladiator rolls — Attitude towards gladiator improves
maximum damage
Gladiator — Attitude towards gladiator improves 2 steps
confirms critical
hit
Successful feint Bluff vs. Sense Motive Attitude towards opponent worsens 2 steps
in combat
Successful Intimidate vs. Level Check Attitude towards opponent worsens 2 steps
demoralize opponent
Successful DC 35 Perform (weapon Attitude towards you improves 2 steps
Perform (weapon drill)
drill) check
Successful skill DC 40 Appropriate Skill Attitude towards you improves
check to impress
crowd
Destroy Opponent’s See sunder rules Attitude towards you improves 2 steps
weapon
Trip Opponent See trip rules Attitude towards you improves 2 steps
Disarm Opponent See disarm rules Attitude towards you improves 2 steps
Pin an opponent See grapple rules Attitude towards you improves,
attitude towards opponent worsens
Bull rush opponent See bull rush rules Attitude towards you improves 2 steps
10 ft
Gladiator caught — Attitude towards gladiator worsens 5 steps
cheating
Unhorse a mounted See trip rules Attitude towards opponent worsens
opponent
Deflect a ranged See Deflect Arrows feat Attitude towards you improves
attack
Catch a ranged See Snatch Arrows feat Attitude towards you improves 2 steps
attack
Return a ranged See Snatch Arrows and Attitude towards you improves 3 steps
attack Return Shot feats
Destroy opponent’s See sunder rules Attitude towards you improves
shield
Employ an illusion Bluff vs. Sense Motive Attitude towards opponent worsens
to trick opponent (if required)
(once per spell)
Fail a Concentration Attitude towards you worsens
concentration check
Damage opponent See rules for two-weapon Attitude towards you improves
with shield fighting and shield bash
Hamstring opponent See Hamstring feat Attitude towards opponent worsens
Use total defense — Attitude towards opponent worsens
to avoid all damage
for 3 consecutive
rounds (opponent
must be attacking
you with a melee
weapon each round)
Attack opponent See Prone Attack feat Attitude towards you improves
and stand up from
prone at the same time
Damage opponent See Flying Kick feat Attitude towards you improves
with a flying kick
Pin opponent’s See Pin Shield feat Attitude towards opponent worsens
shield
Knock opponent back See Awesome Blow feat Attitude towards you improves
(MM Version)
Combat stalls (3 — Attitude towards both gladiators worsens
consecutive rounds
without an attack
or piece of showmanship)
Spring Attack — Attitude towards you improves
Leaping Charge — Attitude towards you improves
Striking multiple See Cleave feat (and Attitude towards you improves
targets with the Combat Brute feat)
same attack
Firing Multiple See Manyshot feat Attitude towards you improves
Arrows simultaneously
Allow opponent to — Attitude towards you improves
retrieve weapon
or give him one
after a successful
sunder or disarm
Killing a beloved — Attitude towards you worsens 6 steps
opponent
Killing a liked — Attitude towards you worsens 5 steps
opponent
Killing an — Attitude towards you worsens 4 steps
appreciated opponent
Killing an — Attitude towards you worsens 3 steps
indifferent opponent
Killing a disliked — Attitude towards you worsens 2 steps
opponent
Killing a hated — Attitude towards you worsens
opponent
Failure to employ — Attitude towards you worsens 3 steps
signature in match

Note: If you fail any of the above actions and a negative consequence happens as a result, the Attitude towards you worsens instead.
Note: Any particular spell can only grant a crowd bonus once, even with multiple castings.

Attitude Score Consequences
Crowd Attitude Crowd View
Score of Gladiator Result
-20 or below Hated -3 morale penalty to attacks and damage,
and cannot continue in tournament after
losing
-10 to -19 Detested -2 morale penalty to attacks and damage
-5 to -9 Disliked -1 morale penalty to attacks and damage
4 to -4 Indifferent —
5 to 9 Appreciated +1 morale bonus to attacks and damage
10 to 19 Liked +2 morale bonus to attacks and damage
20 and above Beloved +3 morale bonus to attacks and damage,
and True Resurrection if killed during
a match

Note: The morale bonus/penalty to damage does not apply to spells. Motivation plays no role in how a spell does damage.

Recovery Between Matches
Matches are monitored by clerics ready to stabilize any competitor in the negatives with a reach cure minor wounds (this allows coverage of the entire arena by 4 clerics without them being on the field of combat).

It is the gladiator’s responsibility to prepare themselves for their next match. Clerics are available to cast healing spells, but gladiators will be charged the standard rate for spellcasting.

Equipment
The total value of a contestant’s equipment for use in the ring is limited by the NPC Gear Value table in the DMG p. 127.

A character is further allowed an equal amount of wealth which can be used in between matches to repair damaged equipment, replace destroyed equipment, pay for healing (including being raised from the dead), etc. Note: These funds cannot be used to replace single use items which were used up in the match.

Single use items cost five times their list value and will not be replenished in between rounds. Expensive spell components count as single use items.
Clarification: Wands, and other items with charges, count as single use items. However, they can be purchased at either 5x cost fully charged, or at normal cost with 1/5th the normal number of charges (so 10 charages for a wand).
Further Clarification: Ammunition does not count as a single use item, despite the fact that it is destroyed most of the time upon use.

Custom magic items are prohibited, although armors and weapons can be created using the standard abilities and costs.

In the case of signatures which are dependant on the use of certain items (such as the weapons required by a weapon style feat), those items are discounted 25%.

Mounts count as equipment and must be paid for. The same rules that govern character recovery govern mount recovery between matches.

Magic
Psionics: The psionics/magic transparency is in full effect. All tournament rules which apply to magic apply equally to psionics.

Contestants may not have any active spell effects at the time competition commences.

Contestants will be checked by an attendant wizard (Wiz 15, using greater arcane sight) prior to the beginning of their match to ensure compliance with the above rules.

Spells cast during the match are limited to the spell and caster level of a straight classed ranger.
Clarification: Feats and items which modify a spell's effective level or a character's caster level do not modify this restriction. The straight classed ranger mentioned here is assumed to be a human without these feats or items.

Spells which are not flashy (i.e. do not have noticeable visible effects) are restricted to those of a personal nature.

Spells which deal damage directly to your opponents are prohibited, however spells are allowed to deal damage indirectly. E.g. Fireball deals fire damage to your opponent(s) directly and is thus prohibited. Flame arrow, however, deals damage indirectly by adding fire damage to your normal ranged attacks and is thus allowed.
Clarification: The use of touch range spells to damage your opponent with a melee touch attack falls under the restriction against spells directly damaging your opponent. However, delivering a touch spell with an unarmed strike or a natural weapon counts as the spell enhancing your attack and is thus allowed.

Death effects and spells or abilities which carry a significant chance of outright killing the target (such as disintegrate) are prohibited, regardless of any flashy effects they might have.

Spells which are deemed illegal under the above rules will be countered or dispelled by one of the attending casters. If the effect cannot be countered or dispelled immediately the judge will halt the match until the effect expires or can be reversed.

[Tashalar]

Spells which deal damage directly to your opponents are prohibited, however spells are allowed to deal damage indirectly. E.g. Fireball deals fire damage to your opponent(s) directly and is thus prohibited. Flame arrow, however, deals damage indirectly by adding fire damage to your normal ranged attacks is prohibited.
The last word should probably be 'allowed', right?

Other than that - sounds good! I like it... although ECL 17 is quite high - I never played or built a character of an ECL higher than 10...

Might be I build a fun and flashy Gladiotor though - it's more about the fun than about the winning, eh?

[Black Plauge]

Yes, that should be allowed. Wording changed. Along with a grammer fix in that same sentance.

[Chris Chandler]

Sounds good, BP. Let's see if I can make a bit of a better offensive competitor this go-round, erm, with proper RP flair, of course.

[LeadPal]

Even though I doubt that I'll keep up with the post rate, I just can't resist joining this one. Well, I guess that at worst I'll create an interesting character that'll get whupped due to inactivity.

BP: could you possibly be persuaded to throw the MMIII into the list of available books?

[Black Plauge]

No. The list of avaliable books is strictly limited by the ones that I own.

[generaljimX]

You mention that Resounding Blow, from the Book of Exalted Deeds, is permited. I take that to mean you have said book or could reveiw said material. So, what about the feat Subduing Strike, from, obviously, BoED? It seems rather appropriate for this setting, especially considering that the first 3 rounds of combat must deal nonlethal damage.

I personally think it needs some kind of prerequisite, but that's just my opinion.

[Noocytx]

I don't believe I saw this mentioned, so I got a quick question.

Magic / Psionic Transparency? Do they react the same way or are they different? Is SR and PR interchangable, etc.?

[Black Plauge]

I do have the BoED, but consider most of it totally inapprorpiate for a tournament setting, hence it being default prohibited. Subduing Strike, however, is actually okay and will be added to the list of exceptions.

The magic/psionic transparency, being the game default, is in effect.

[LeadPal]

Oh, darn, no MMIII means no kenku. Oh well, I'll make due with something else.

Can particularly unusual usage of magic or psionics (within the bounds of the set limits, of course) count as a "signature," or must it be strictly martial?

[generaljimX]

I may just be missing it, but how much gold do the characters get to equip themselves?

[Noocytx]

Spells cast during the match are limited to the spell and caster level of a straight classed ranger.

I'm confused by this statement. Is it basically saying that you are only allowed to cast spells up to Fourth level and only have a caster level of 9 since that is what a Ranger has at level 17?

IRT generaljimx, the character is allowed to have NPC gear of 17th level. You can also fix broken items, replace items, etc. in between matches with equivelant funds, but you can't buy one-time items or replace one-time items as they are only supposed to be one-time items.

[Black Plauge]

Can particularly unusual usage of magic or psionics (within the bounds of the set limits, of course) count as a "signature," or must it be strictly martial?
This will be adjucated on a case by case basis. What did you have in mind?

I may just be missing it, but how much gold do the characters get to equip themselves?
First line in the equipment section. If you don't have access to a DMG to look up the number, let me know. I don't want to post it publicaly because it's not OGL material.

I'm confused by this statement. Is it basically saying that you are only allowed to cast spells up to Fourth level and only have a caster level of 9 since that is what a Ranger has at level 17?
That's the basic jist (though half of 17 is 8, not 9; fractions are always rounded down). However, since the restriction is on the spells cast during the match, and not the caster, your character can have a higher caster level, it's just that they will have to voluntarily supress it to no higher than 8th when casting spells during the match. The rule is written the way it is so that it applies to spell-like abilities and spells cast from items in addition to spells cast by characters.

[Black Plauge]

I'm happy to report that my D&D 3.5 library has just expanded by two books. I've looked them over and have decided to add them to the list of allowed resources.

[Black Plauge]

Attached are two versions of the arena.

The first uses very basic fill styles and thus creates a smaller file.

The second uses more advanced fill styles and sheet effects, creating a larger, but more visually appealing file.

Which do people prefer?

[Benicus]

Hey hey hey! Let me on in this yo! But yeah the second is more apleasing to me, if my opinion matters. But yeah, can I play?

[Black Plauge]

The tournament is open to everyone.

Once the sign-ups open, that is.

[Mercutio]

I like the second one better, personally, but would suggest we go with the first one for simplicity's sake. The smaller the file, the less problems we'll have accessing them.

[Linklegacy77]

Both files are the same size, unless I'm missing something.

[Black Plauge]

I'm talking size in terms of bytes, not size in terms of dimensions. The first is 111kB the second is 177kB. Now, both will be bigger once all the details for each match are added, but there is a limit of 250kB for uploaded images here. As a result, I'm more likely to have to lower the resolution limits on the second (nicer looking) one to get it to fit with full details than I am on the first.

[Chris Chandler]

I vote for smaller file size, simply because I'll be unable to access something larger if I'm accessing from home.

[generaljimX]

I vote the smaller one because you won't have to(necessarily) give up quality to get it on here. But the second is very cool.

[Linklegacy77]

Yeah, I know what you meant. Strangely, the library computer dled the files wrong, and they both turned up at the same size.

[Lord Twig]

I personally like the second and have a fast connection to the net, so file size is not an issue. That said, the first works just fine and would be kinder to those who may still have dial-up.

[Linklegacy77]

I'm stuck on dial-up....

[Tashalar]

Reread through the thread and my question was already answered...

Another question just came up - can familiars and animal companions be of any size?

[Black Plauge]

Size restrictions do not apply to familiars and animal companions.

[Boomlaor]

I thought LA only figured in for exp purposes, i.e. how much exp you need to gain a lvl, which is why I did it that way. I guess I misunderstood, I'll rework him. :)

[Black Plauge]

Gaining XP is based on ECL.

ECL is defined as HD+LA.

Thus LA effects gaining XP.

Since the tournament has an ECL limit (not an HD limit) you have to take LA into account when building your character.

[Noocytx]

You mention that in rounds 2, 3, and 4 all damage must be nonlethal damage.

What happens if someone doesn't do nonlethal damage? Are they disqualified?

I'm assuming that ability score damage is also included in being lethal damage (meaning poison would not be allowed in rounds 2, 3, or 4, etc.)

[Lune]

Question on the allowed resources:
No races of the wild?
No PHBII or DMGII?

[Black Plauge]

Question on the allowed resources:
No races of the wild?
No PHBII or DMGII?
Those sources are not allowed.

What happens if someone doesn't do nonlethal damage [during rounds 2, 3 & 4]? Are they disqualified?
The rules have been modified to cover this eventuality.

I'm assuming that ability score damage is also included in being lethal damage (meaning poison would not be allowed in rounds 2, 3, or 4, etc.)
Con damage is lethal damage. All other ability score damage is considered non-lethal as it is incapable of killing a character.

[Boomlaor]

Speaking of poison, any restrictions on the use thereof? I remember dragon bile poison in particular causing problems in previous competitions.

[Tashalar]

It won't here. It's five times as expensive AND will only be usable once - ie for ONE battle!

Furthermore, this is ECL 17 and the Fortitude Saves are appropriately high... ;)

[Lune]

Are spells that effectively make a character unable to fight allowed? Something like symbol of sleep for instance. (I realize that particular spell is too high to cast in this tournament, just an example)

[Tashalar]

There has to at least be a flashy effect... a Hold Person spell would not be allowed for instance...

[Black Plauge]

Speaking of poison, any restrictions on the use thereof? I remember dragon bile poison in particular causing problems in previous competitions.

Tashalar has the right of it. Dragon Bile will cost you 7,500 gp per dose. Plus, single use items cannot be restocked between battles. That means you have to have a full tournament supply before your first match. If this tournament is as popular as the last one, the winner can expect to participate in 8 to 10 matches. Equiping a character with enough Dragon Bile to last the tournament will require most, if not all of a character's equipment budget.

Plus, at ECL 17 some characters will be totally immune to posion. Monks, for instance, gain it at 11th level and druids get it at 9th.

Are spells that effectively make a character unable to fight allowed?
If the spell manages to meet all the other necessary criteria, then yes, it would be allowed. However, so far as I know, there are no spells in the allowed resources which would totally incapacitate a gladiator and meet all the required criteria. If you think there is, you should probably check with me first to make sure I'm the one that missed something.

[Lune]

Does "flashy effects" only include visual effects? Or would it include verbal commands?

[Black Plauge]

For the most part, visual only. If you think an exception should be made, let me know and I'll consider it.

[Tashalar]

How about magic items which need a CL higher than 8th to be created?
Items which might also produce spell effects that are higher level?

[Black Plauge]

Item creation is not restricted by the rules.

Items which produce spell effects are subject to the same rules as spells cast by a character. Note, however, that you can't change the caster level of an item once it is made.

[Noocytx]

With item creation being allowed, is there an XP buffer of any sort?

Do we have unlimited XP to spend, a set amount, or none (effectively making the character ECL 16)?

[Black Plauge]

You misunderstand. Characters cannot craft magic items themselves to reduce cost. All items must be purchased at Full Market Price (with the exceptions for single use items and items which are part of a character's signature). What I was saying is that the "Caster Level" entry in a magic item's description has no bearing on this competition unless the item casts a spell, in which case, it can't be higher than 8th.

[elmer_jok]

So while restricting the said caster level to 8, this also applies to the spell level that is able to be cast? i.e. 3rd level spells? Or could you cast higher level spells if you have the ability to do so, just having to pull back the effective caster level to 8?

[Black Plauge]

Spell level is restricted to 4th level spells (which are avaliable to a ranger at 17th level). However, keep in mind that when you pull your caster level down, you cannot cast spells which a caster of your class of that lower level wouldn't have access to.

E.g. A 17th level wizard normally has access to 9th level spells. However, when casting a spell with a caster level of 8th level they cannot cast a 9th level spell because an 8th level wizard doesn't have access to 9th level spells.

[elmer_jok]

Aha, I see now. Seems like it'd be pretty pointless then to be a 17th level wizard. I'll get to work then.

Also, since item creation feats don't lower the cost of the items, what would be the point in getting them at all?

[Boomlaor]

The sense of satisfaction you get at knowing that you made your armor yourself?

[Black Plauge]

There are also some PrCs which require self crafting.

[Boomlaor]

2 questions about psionic 'magic' items:

1) Do you have to have a psionic class to wear/use them?
2) Are they permitted in this tournament if so?

Boomlaor

[Black Plauge]

Psionic items only require a psionic class to use them if they are Power Completion or Power Trigger activated. Command Thought and Use-activated psionic items can be used by any character.

Psionic items follow the same restrictions as magic items.

[Boomlaor]

ok, to make sure I understand this correctly then:
Boots of Stomping These boots allow the wearer to use stomp (http://d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/stomp.htm) as the power three times per day (Reflex save (http://d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#reflex) DC 13) when the wearer stomps her feet.
Faint psychokinesis; ML 3rd; Craft Universal Item (http://d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#craftUniversalItem), stomp (http://d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/stomp.htm); Price 600 gp; Weight 1 lb.

ML 3rd means that you need to have a Manifester Level of at least 3 to create it, or that these boots manifest their psionics at lvl 3?

[Black Plauge]

Both.

[Boomlaor]

Is there any way to make an item manifest at a lower level than the one specified? E.g. could the aforementioned boots be made to manifest at ML 2 somehow?

Boomlaor

edit: nevermind, I see that this question was answered earlier in the thread for magic items, so I'm assuming the answer is no.

[Black Plauge]

Your edit is correct.

[Lune]

If I have my character take a craft skill may I have made the items I could make with that craft skill at a reduced price?

[Boomlaor]

Characters cannot craft magic items themselves to reduce cost. All items must be purchased at Full Market Price (with the exceptions for single use items and items which are part of a character's signature). no dice

[Tashalar]

I just looked over your character quickly, Lord Twig, and now have a question - can one buy wands with less charges than full for a reduced price?

The way you did it is great - 1/5 of the charges x5 price because wands count as single use items = normal price. And the number of charges absolutely suffices...

Hm...

[Lord Twig]

Black Plauge specifically gave the option of starting with 10 charges in a wand instead of 50. It should get me through any match I might need them in, I hope. :)

[Tashalar]

Okay, cool... I'll see if I can include that, too...

But you are giving the other competitors a headache, Lord Twig! You are flying and can be invisible!! Now everyone has to figure out ways to catch you when you are flying and to get you when you are invisible...

I hope the crowd will dislike your character for vanishing from sight!! :yum:

[Lord Twig]

Okay, cool... I'll see if I can include that, too...

But you are giving the other competitors a headache, Lord Twig! You are flying and can be invisible!! Now everyone has to figure out ways to catch you when you are flying and to get you when you are invisible...

I hope the crowd will dislike your character for vanishing from sight!! :yum:

I consider it a public service. At least Rose will become visible when she attacks. Improved Invisibility is a 4th level spell. At 17th level you need to be prepared for any eventuality.

My advise for making a character is to not focus just on what your character can do, but what your character can do when someone else does something funky.

How will you handle Invisibility? Flying? Grappling? Poison? Sunders? Trip attacks?

I am sure that I have not thought of everything. There are too many books out there and I only have a few of them. :tsk:

[Boomlaor]

Are the platforms in the arena held up by a post on each corner or are they held up by solid walls? (i.e. is it possible to move under a platform?)

[Black Plauge]

Platforms are built like crates and have "walls" down the side as part of their support mechanism.

So the answer to your question is yes and no.

It is possible to get under a platform, but it is considerablly harder than just walking or crawling underneath. You need to lift the edge up and then duck underneath. You could then drop the edge down behind you if you so desired.

[Tashalar]

Boomlaor made a great effort in making a detailed character sheet. To make it easy for Black Plauge and other contestants I propose that everyone mimicks the level of detail Boomlaor used.

Question: If we post information on what feats or abilities do - isn't it forbidden to post much of this? Copyright and so on? Otherwise I'd say everyone give a brief description of their character's powers so that those who do not have access to all the books don't have a disadvantage.

Just a proposition of course! ;)

What if a lot of people make two characters? Those with one character can obviously keep theirs, but how do you decide which players can keep two and which might have to give up one?
If I might make a suggestion - those who want to keep two characters should be more active than the rest... I have no idea how to 'rule' on this, though... :worry:

@Lord Twig: I second your thoughts on how to prepare your characters... :)

EDIT: I tried to find it but was unsuccessful... how many characters are going to participate maximum?

[Black Plauge]

A board member may submit up to two gladiators to compete. However, because the tournament is double elimination, if more than 16 board members sign up to participate, I may ask those with two entries to drop one so that this tournament doesn't last forever.

If we go over 16 board members entering, I reserve the right to restrict everyone to 1 character. I might not do it (it will depend on how many people submitted two characters), however, if I do all board members with two entries will be asked to pick one.

Beyond that, there are no limits on the number of entrants. Last time I ran this tournament (when it started on 3EBB) I had 28 characters start the tournament.

[Lord Twig]

I have a concern with this rule:

Gladiator whiffs - Attack roll less than 10+opponents Dex and dodge bonuses - Attitude towards gladiator worsens
A lot of the competitors are going to have 4th attacks that are very low. Normally this is just an extra chance to get lucky and hit. But with this rule you will be losing attack bonus and damage from trying. It really reduce the value of having a BAB of +16 or higher.

Thoughts?

[Tashalar]

Hm... I agree... the weakest attack could be around +10 which could easily yield such a result. If a character has exceptionally high Dexterity and dodge bonuses, that problem is worsened.

But I have no experience with these tournament rules - you have taken part or DMed these tournaments in the past, whatever decision you make is fine with me. I'll help playtest the rule then! ;)

[Black Plauge]

You don't have to use that attack if you don't want to.

Also, Dex and Dodge bonuses, in general, do not make up the bulk of a character's AC (except in some specialty builds). As a result, Your 4th attack may miss, because it's lower than your opponents AC, but still not whiff.

[LeadPal]

Two suggestions for the Crowd Attitude list:

The psionic feat that lets you reflect arrows (forget name) should be listed. If the reflected attack hits, it should be more attitude improving than Snatch Arrows.

The successful use of manyshot should grant a bonus to attitude, too. Shooting two+ arrows at once? Now that's cool. :)

[Black Plauge]

I agree. Those actions have been added.

[Tashalar]

How detailed should descriptions be of where which piece of equipment is on the character?

Obviously we are going to state what our characters are holding when they enter the arena, but other than that?
Do we have to take care that potions will not break, etc?

Btw - how will you determine where the contestants start? How many monsters and obstacles there will be and where they will be at? Will it be different for each and every match and decided randomly without us knowing beforehand or will it be one setup for each round?

[Black Plauge]

Your equipment should include whatever carrying devices you need to reasonably carry your equipment. Weapons come with shethes and you'll obviously be wearing armor and using shields, but everything else will need some kind of carrying device.

Remember, armor doesn't have pockets. Only unarmored contestants can rely on pockets for holding potions and the like.

For the arena setup, read the rules section describing the arena. It fully answers your questions.

[SlagMortar]

LinkLegacy, my character's signature is much more about a spring attack and trip than the spiked chain. I would have used a guisarme, but I wanted the extra sunder resistance. I tried to make the signature pretty specific so that it wouldn't rule out anyone else's character.

[generaljimX]

@Link: Also, the signature states nothing about a spike chain. If you're not going to enter simply because the other character uses the same weapon as well, but without having it as a signature, half the competitors (quite figurative) wouldn't be able to enter if that was the case.

And you pride yourself for going to Harvard and being smart.....;)

[elmer_jok]

I seem to have misplaced my book of exalted cheese book. can someone give me the rundown on subduing strike? It looks like it will be needed on pretty much any build.

[Black Plauge]

Basically it allows you to deal non-lethal damage at no penalty with any weapon.

[elmer_jok]

any particular prereq's?

[Tashalar]

None. Don't forget the merciful enchantment on a weapon though - +1d6 subdual damage and the weapon only deals subdual damage (+1). :)

[elmer_jok]

I'd rather just use a feat on it considering the low amount of gold we have to work with.

[Lord Twig]

My dwarven defender didn't bother. He will just take the -4 to attack hit for the first three rounds.

[Black Plauge]

You know, you could also use a non-lethal weapon like a sap.

[generaljimX]

Basically it allows you to deal non-lethal damage at no penalty with any weapon.

Not any weapon, my good friend. It only allows you to deal subdual damage with melee weapons. It specifically says it doesn't allow you to deal subdual damage with ranged....

[Black Plauge]

So I don't have my books in front of me.

[generaljimX]

I never said you did. Just pointing out the little things....

[Linklegacy77]

Well, you see, I had wanted my character to be very unique, and that won't be anymore.

Also, more to the point: I'd rather just watch now, I've got too much stuff going on.

[bodog]

Familiars, animal companions, and special mounts are permitted, but cohorts are not.

Are there any size restrictions on said animals/familiars/mounts?

A 16th level druid can have a Tyrannosaurus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm#tyrannosaurus) as an animal companion

[Black Plauge]

Size restriction do not apply to animal companions/familiars/mounts. At ECL 17 you should expect and be able to deal with the possiblity of Huge (or larger) creatures.

After all, some of the chained monster will be that big.

[Tashalar]

Since you brought up the subject of the T-Rex, I thought I'd drop by and tell you that I'm working on a Druid/Halfling Outrider whose animal companion and mount is a T-Rex.

It's almost finished...

But it's my second character and if your planning on doing the same, your only going to submit one character and your character is also almost finished, I wouldn't submit her... I'll probably post him sometime on the weekend.

[bodog]

Nah I'm not going to make a druid so go ahead Tashalar. I have some much more evil planned...I just hope to have him posted in time :)

[Chris Chandler]

Waiting on a BP rule, then I'll be ready to post my character. He seemed an interesting build, but I always enter these for fun, not for dominance. See, now I'm perfectly justified for losing in the first round.:roll:

[Tashalar]

I always enter these for fun, not for dominance. See, now I'm perfectly justified for losing in the first round.
Good job! :P

No, seriously... there's the grand melee first in which you will take part. As far as I have understood it (and I read and re-read that part several times), the result of the grand melee kind of decides on who faces whom in the 1on1 matches? So you'll have another one going there...

Since it is double elimination, you have another fight coming up after that one and finally, if you manage to get the highest crowd score, you can challenge the champion once more in the end! So lots of possibilities for fun, eh? :evolved:

[Benicus]

Yeay! I hope to have fun and don't mind too much if I lose in the first round either (as players of the thredd tourny should know), though losers brackets are fun!

[generaljimX]

I've editted my original post to have my character. Pics pending.

Edit: All pics now included.

[Tashalar]

Ahem... generaljimX - could you not have PMed me that you were going to post a halfling outrider? Since I posted I was working on one, that would have been very nice of you...

Mine is quite different from yours, but two halfling outriders would be... hm... I cannot find the right word for it... boring? What say you Black Plauge?

[Black Plauge]

As I discussed with Tashalar as he was creating his character, Mounted Archery is not enough by itself to constitute a signature. However, there are Halfling Outrider PrC abilities which do qualify. generaljimx will have to pick one.

As for Tashalar's potential character, I don't mind having to halfling outriders, but they cannot have the same signature. Signatures are first come first serve, so who ever has a completed character (with a valid signature) gets it, if you both want the same one (which I'm guessing you do based on what I know).

[Tashalar]

Well, I could post the character within two hours I guess, but I don't feel like fighting over this. As I said, I would have felt better about this if you had informed me, general...

Sorry that all my question and your help with the rules is now for naught, BP. Thanks in any case for the quick and precise answers!

I'll come up with another character and have more of them for you, though! :D

[generaljimX]

I would have PMed you, had I not spaced ORP the day before yesterday and seen your post earlier than right before I posted my character....Anyway, sorry.

I'll go and edit my entry to have a specific signature. Shame mounted archery wouldn't qualify.....Guess it broadens the scope for other charaters......Actually, I don't think I'll use any of the Halfling Outrider abilities. Would Improved Rapid Shot or Improved Mounted Combat constitute a signature? If not, then I'll have no choice but to pick a HOR ability....

[Black Plauge]

No, neither Improved Rapid Shot nor Improved Mounted Archery constitutes a signature. Both feats merely lessen penalties. They do not give you the ability to do anything new and creative.

[generaljimX]

Ok then. I didn't think either did, but thought I'd ask. Edit coming.

Edit: Edit Done.

[Black Plauge]

That signature works, and was exactly what Tashalar was working on. It pays to submit first.

[generaljimX]

Yes, I suppose it does. It really wouldn't be hard to make a build that took advantage of the leap from saddle ability, but it would constitue a different build.

Tashalar, once again, I'm sorry for not letting you know about my build.

[Benicus]

Lol, and on another subject:
BP How does my character look now? The equipment good?

[SlagMortar]

Benicus, I saw a couple of things on your equipment. Your rings of protection do not stack with one another. You could instead get an +2 amulet of natural armor or upgrade your bracers to +3 for the same price, but the bonus would not apply to your touch AC. Your scimitar should have a threat range of 15-20. Your one shot items should cost 5 times the normal price so your cure moderate potion would be 1500, 4 cure lights would be 1000 and flask of acid would be 50.

I'm not sure which item gives you the +3 Item part of your AC. I'm also not sure why you would get the 25% discount on your +6 Gloves of Dex, though obviously that's BP's call.

[Black Plauge]

BP: you are using the perform (weapon drill) rules from CW, right? Therefore everyone gets to add half their BAB to the skill check and +2 for several notable feats?
Furthermore, is perform (weapon drill) also on the fighter's and other's class lists or only on those which actually have perform?
Yes, the Perform (weapon drill) rules come from CW. The only change is that I've raised the DC for this high-level competition.
Perform is not on the fighter's class list. Perfrom (weapon drill) is still a perform skill. Only classes with Perform on their class list have Perform (weapon drill) as a class skill.

[Black Plauge]

Yay! We have a chainmail mini user!

[Chris Chandler]

I'll have a mini selected once I'm at home. I can't access the site here.

[Lord Twig]

To what use can the Profession: Gladiator skill be put to?

[Tashalar]

@BP: You are a chainmail fan? :smiling:

@Chris:
Granite and 250gp worth of diamond (stoneskin spell) x10 (2500) Single use items cost five times their list value and will not be replenished in between rounds. Expensive spell components count as single use items. I guess the component for stoneskin counts as 'expensive'? The ruling is up to BP, though...

On the other hand - Chris, have a look at the characters that have been posted so far. I think at there are quite a few with adamantine weapons out there. Maybe that spell is not as useful as it seems? ;)

Also note that you will have to spend a standard action to activate the frost feature of your Halberd before it becomes active. Maybe a different +1 power would be better?

Adamant Frost Halberd +3 (13,242) 1/2 Price per BP, 25% discount
Wow - how did you get half price and then again 25% discount?

[Tashalar]

How about everyone create a gladiator name for their characters? I just went ahead and did it, but wouldn't it be great if people in the crowd shout the names of their respective favorites?

I'm certainly looking forward to the combat, but I'm definitely also looking forward to the flavor and a little rping during the tournament. For me it'll be more than posting the mechanical stuff. What does everyone think on this?

[Benicus]

"Death Dancer!"

Yay!

[Black Plauge]

I guess the component for stoneskin counts as 'expensive'? The ruling is up to BP, though...
Yes, stoneskin's material component is an expensive material component. Any material component which has a price listed counts as an expensive material component.

Wow - how did you get half price and then again 25% discount?
He get's half-price because normally he'd only have to pay the mundane cost as a kensai. What is actually happening is that his equipment allotment is being reduced. However, there seems to have been a slight misunderstanding. The 1/2 price applies to the enchantment cost (the part that a kensai gets for free normally). The signautre discount would only count on the mundane base weapon (the part he actually has to pay for). His calculations are thus a little off. The weapon should cost (3,010-25%)+32,000/2= 18,991.25 gp

To what use can the Profession: Gladiator skill be put to?
Well, it can be used to earn a living. You get one check a week and earn the check result in gold pieces.

Oh, you mean within the tournament? None.

You are a chainmail fan?
Not really, but I'm glad to see that people aren't confining themselves to the D&D miniatures. I went through a fair bit of effort to find, download, and prep the images of the Chainmail minis and like to see my efforts get used.

[Chris Chandler]

Hey, l lookit that. I never realized the DR was type specific. It was a tossup over the 4th level slot, anyways. I'll go back to what I was considering. I'll adjust my equipment appropriately, as well.

[Lord Twig]

Well, it can be used to earn a living. You get one check a week and earn the check result in gold pieces.

Oh, you mean within the tournament? None.

In a similar vain, my Dwarven Defender is a Fighter/Dwarven Defender. I only get 2 skill points per level and neither Perform or Profession are available as class skills. I went ahead and dumped 20 points to raise his Perform: Weapon Drill up to 10 ranks. I assume that fulfills the requirement?

[Black Plauge]

Yes. Max ranks for a cross-class skill is 10 ranks.

[Boomlaor]

Lune: great character concept, I'm struggling to figure out a way to overcome that smoke. As my professors back in law school used to say, if you can't win within the system, challence the system. I think your entry is outside the spirit of the rules of this competition. We are supposed to be putting on a spectacle for the crowds at the arena. If the entire arena (a radius of 100', I'm assuming that smoke rises up as well as covers the ground) is blacked out by opaque smoke, that's (1) no spectacle and (2) annoying to the spectators.

[Lord Twig]

Lune: great character concept, I'm struggling to figure out a way to overcome that smoke. As my professors back in law school used to say, if you can't win within the system, challence the system. I think your entry is outside the spirit of the rules of this competition. We are supposed to be putting on a spectacle for the crowds at the arena. If the entire arena (a radius of 100', I'm assuming that smoke rises up as well as covers the ground) is blacked out by opaque smoke, that's (1) no spectacle and (2) annoying to the spectators.

I actually agree here. I didn't realize the radius was that big, but even if it wasn't, how entertaining is it to see a black blob appear and then see nothing else for the rest of the battle?

Our hippogriff mounted competitor may just fly around above the smoke (as well as some other flying competitors), but again, not much fun to watch.

[SlagMortar]

Well, I think Rakesh my dragon disciple could beat him. He has 40 foot blind sight, but Rakesh has 60 foot blindsense, flight, and 100 arrows. It would be a very long and tedious fight though for both the real audience and the imaginary one. He does have some interesting equipment that I'm tempted to take a closer look at, but I am trying to stay close to core. Right now practised spellcaster is my only non-core thing.

[SlagMortar]

Noocytx, I think your caster level is too high. I believe you should only have spells and caster level as an 8th level sorcerer. I thought I'd point that out since I imagine it might change your character substantially.

[Tashalar]

@SlagMortar:
Spells cast during the match are limited to the spell and caster level of a straight classed ranger. Only spells that are cast during the match are limited... that doesn't mean that he cannot have all the spells he likes! One could even enter with a 17th level wizard if one feels like it! :D

Those spells do have a use though...
------------------
This metal urn is identical in appearance to an efreeti bottle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#efreetiBottle), except that it does nothing but smoke. The amount of smoke is great if the stopper is pulled out, pouring from the bottle and totally obscuring vision across a 50-foot spread in 1 round. If the bottle is left unstoppered, the smoke billows out another 10 feet per round until it has covered a 100-foot radius. This area remains smoke-filled until the eversmoking bottle is stoppered. Well, Lune's character could just stopper it again after one round and limit the area to a 50 foot spread. Inside he can then cast greater invisibility and freedom of movement, prepare a true strike and then go wraith strike when he attacks...

BUT: IF he only limits the area to a 50 feet spread, then the cloud will do him no good except for preparing himself. The other characters will just stay far away from the cloud... the arena is approx. 90'x165' (counting rows on the map). If he centers the cloud in the middle, there will still be almost 60' on each side. If he lets the cloud spread up to 90' - then it would border on the walls where the crowd starts (allowing it to go further would certainly more than annoy them), then it's still almost 40' on both sides. He could then sense his opponents, but nothing more...

Although I like the character build and the creative signature on the one hand, I also think it's not quite within the spirits of the tournament... it's like failing to fulfill the theme for a character creation contest over at 3ebb somehow. The theme is "To make a show for the crowd" or something similar. Billowing smoke everytime that this character enters the arena will result in the spectators leaving and demanding their money back! :smiling:

The assassin is fine I guess, but the smoke isn't. The crowd wants to see and laugh at the second helpless gladiator who looks around himself the whole time searching for his opponent at least!

[Noocytx]

Yea, High caster level can be willingly lowered to cast spells, so I'm okay with the build I have right now. Thanks for the explanation Tashalar.

Lune, great character concept. I liked the discussion we had about it on 3e. I would like to see it work for duels, but the crowd would be upset with this I would think. Being a professional gladiator, and never really showcasing your fight? Doesn't sound really that great. Greater invisibility is the same thing as well, it never shows off what is really going on. Invisibility will show the warrior just after they make contact with them, intensifying the strike. Greater invisibility only shows blood but not how it comes about (one of the reasons I didn't include greater invisibility on my build).

[Chris Chandler]

I left all invisibility spells off for that very reason. People come to see a show, not a ghost.

[SlagMortar]

Only spells that are cast during the match are limited... that doesn't mean that he cannot have all the spells he likes! One could even enter with a 17th level wizard if one feels like it!

Ah, I was under the impression that spells known for a spontaneous caster would still be limited to what an 8th level caster would have. Carry on.

[akiko]

I'll have to diagree. As a spectator (I don't plan on joining) I would have no problem with an invisible attacker. I think the cuts simply appearing on the body and blood flying everywhere while the helpless barbarian swings wildly is highly entertaining.

As for Lune's entry, I don't know if it is all bad. Simply because he has the smoke effect and the blindisght doesn't mean he will spend all of his time in the smoke. And as such I think it should be allowed and given the same benefits/detriments from the crowd as everyone else. Meaning that if they don't like him he gets the negatives, etc. Which I am sure would happen if he did choose to spend all his time in the smoke.

[Boomlaor]

As stated before, the first round the bottle is opened, the smoke billows out to a 50' radius. The arena is roughly 100' by 200'. A 50' radius cloud of smoke (100' diameter) will obscure half of the fighting surface of the arena imediately. Within the first round it will start billowing into the audience. By the time it reaches a 100' radius (5 rounds) it will cover the entire fighting surface of the arena as well as up into the stands 50' each way on the long sides of the arena, and will billow 100' up into the air. Always having an obscuring mist spell active would be one thing, that's only a 20' radius, but the smoke is a bit outside the scope of this competition imo.

[akiko]

I respect that is your opinion. But also realize that you're making an assumption on his strategy/plan of attack. For all you know he could stopper it after one round and do something else. I don't want to give too much away about what I think because some of the possiblities would be ingenious IMO, but I don't think the entry should be disqualified based on the item alone.

[Tashalar]

but I don't think the entry should be disqualified based on the item alone.
Absolutely not. The character might be required to be adapted though. But let's wait for some input from Lune and Black Plauge now - Lune hasn't posted anything so far and he might have some valid points to make. Black Plauge is the one and only judge here concerning these character decisions so ultimately it's up to him.

I do have to note the fact that almost every player in this tournament has expressed his opinion on the character and all of them have been negative concerning the eversmoking bottle.

Greater Invisibility? Well, that's something else I think... as akiko put it - if the spectators see the blood flying left and right, they might be highly entertained. Also, there are some simple ways to counter Greater Invisibility... not so concerning blindsight and the bottle though... so it's a critique both concerning the power-level of the character as is as well as concerning him not fitting the theme of the tournament.

We'll see... the problem with forbidding the eversmoking bottle is that the whole character was built towards that tactic... :S

[Lune]

Everyone: Sorry, I have been busy at work recently and not a lot of time to post. I am going to try to keep up better though.

Boomlaor: Thanx for the compliment. :D I understand what your saying but respectfully disagree. I am going to be posting the crowd's standing (past) reaction to him which might make some light of this. I also ran this by BP several times long before I posted the character. He had no issues with it.

It really comes down to a matter of perspective. Basically instead of thinking of my character as the thing inside the cloud, think of him AS the cloud. That is his thing. He is the Cloud of Death. The crowd actually craves (in my perspective anyway) to see the Cloud of Death roll towards something, hear pitched battle, worry about the outcome and then see the Cloud of Death roll away with a body remaining behind. (Not saying my character is superior, just trying to put it in perspective.)

Likewise, how would stealth based characters compete in this? What about those that use invisibility or greater invisibility? Hide in plain sight? Sometime suspence created by not knowing where the gladiator is creates entertainment in and of itself. Seeing a huge T-Rex enter a cloud, hearing pitched battle then seeing a tattered corpse I think would make many spectators have an appreciation for the Cloud of Death.

Slag, I think your character would have a decent chance too. ;)

As for tactics I think it is fairly transparent. I had been planning on leaving the bottle open during the entire fight for most fights. Note that the rules state that the smoke spreads, but are assuming that the bottle remains in place. If you move the bottle (like if it is strapped to the character's chest for instance) then it would likely reset the radius. At least by my reading of it.

If there were an eversmoking bottle that acted as a permanent obscuring mist I would rather use that. It is a static radius that is smaller and would work better. Actually it is the exact radius I would like. But no such item exists. If for the benefit of the tournament I would be allowed to have a modified bottle, I would be happy to accept it in place of the (in many ways superior) eversmoking bottle as it exists currently.

I also don't want to create a character that people are going to complain a lot about. Honestly I didn't forsee it as being a problem and even asked BP prior to creation. Playing as a Grimlock would be fairly problematic if I didn't have something that would either make my opponents come to within it's blindsite or something that would allow him to not be seen. The bottle solves both weaknesses and that is really the only reason I was using it.

In the end it is legal accourding to the judge. It is a completely valid tactic for a Grimlock to use. The only problem I would see is if the smoke spreads into the actual audience...for which the character has no control over. Nor can he even tell, for that matter.

[Black Plauge]

Lune PMed me prior to entering this character, below is the extent of that exchange as it pertains to this character:

Would a Grimlock w/ an eversmoking bottle be disallowed in this tournament? ;)

...seriously.

Yes, it would be legal.

Also, are the spectators able to see through the smoke cloud created by an eversmoking bottle? If not, how will this affect their attitude adjustments?

The spectators will not be able to see through the smoke and so anything which happens within the smoke won't effect crowd attitude. If it whole combats happen within the smoke, I'll probably also consider applying the inactivity penalty since as far the spectators are concerned, nothing is happening.

Thats true, but I shouldn't be penalized for them not fighting me. They should. In other tournaments like this that I have played in there is a rule that you have to pursue defeating your opponent and if you avoid them for too long and do not make actions to engage them in some form then you are disqualified. Not saying you should adopt that, but just establishing a precidence.

Inside the smoke cloud, however, the crowd can't tell the difference.

The stalling rule is something I'm reconsidering, however. I didn't quite like the way it worked in the last round but I haven't devised a way to reword it that is completely satisfactory yet. The way it is is the best so far.

However, the above quoted discussion aside, the rules specifically allow any board member to object to a competitor and that I will consider all objections. At this point, I reserve any decision to allow for other people to have input on the discussion.

[Lune]

I wanted to make note that the inactivity penalty should not apply to the character if he is doing something that can be sensed in any form by the crowd, IMO. For instance, if they hear screams of pain from inside the smoke then clearly something is happening.

BP: Would you allow for a use activated/continuous item that made use of the obscuring mist spell instead of the bottle? By my calculations such an item would cost 4000gp. I would ask that it has an asthetic difference from the obscuring mist spell and look more like a dark cloud than like mist so it jives with the character concept. Basically it would opperate much like a static cloud produced from an eversmoking bottle. If it would be easier I would be willing to take an inferior bottle that produces smaller clouds. I know you wanted to only go by RAW so this may not be possible but as people were raising such a fus, I thought I would do what I could to resolve their concerns.

Everyone: Would this be more acceptable to you all if it is possible?

Is the issue more of not being able to see the action, or that it is a hard tactic to fight?

[Geisha]

Just posted my entry, hope it's ok :)

(Yes I know I won't be able to cast 5-7th level spells during the tournament)

[Tashalar]

Wow - I must admit I really like the idea of your character being the cloud itself and being seen as such by the spectators. ;)

Everyone: Would this be more acceptable to you all if it is possible?

Is the issue more of not being able to see the action, or that it is a hard tactic to fight? It is more acceptable indeed if you just look at the thematic part - as long as it's only a permanent 20' spread centered on the caster (or something like that), the spectators would see enough and be able to react to what happens...

Still, SlagMortar's character might stand a chance, but both of my characters stand no chance at all... well, let's say a 5% chance. The grappler might get lucky in one way, but grappling won't do him any good against freedom of movement. The 'Untouchable' depends on exactly that - being untouchable which he cannot be if he loses his Dex. Game over. :tsk:

If I don't get overly creative somehow, I wouldn't have much fun fighting your character for obvious reasons...

Edit: @Geisha: Oh my God! What's that?!? Oh my... I'm going to have to browse through the books to find out what your character can do... :?

[Boomlaor]

Second the "what the hell is that?!?!?" Ok, so time for me to learn swarms 101.

Question 1:
From the SRD:

Vulnerabilities of Swarms

Swarms are extremely difficult to fight with physical attacks. However, they have a few special vulnerabilities, as follows:
A lit torch swung as an improvised weapon deals 1d3 points of fire damage per hit.
A weapon with a special ability such as flaming or frost deals its full energy damage with each hit, even if the weapon’s normal damage can’t affect the swarm.
A lit lantern can be used as a thrown weapon, dealing 1d4 points of fire damage to all creatures in squares adjacent to where it breaks.
Does this mean these listed ways are the only ways to damage a swarm with weapons? They have ACs listed, can you just beat on them as a normal monster?
Question 2:
Again from the SRD:
For game purposes a swarm is defined as a single creature with a space of 10 feet Does this make it a "large" creature, subject to the 5 round limit of the contest rules?

Question 3: Swarms apparently do damage by ending their movement in a space where somone else is. Does this mean they can effectively take a double move (or even a run) and still attack?

[Noocytx]

Geisha,

Sorry, that won't work from my understanding.

With polymorph, the highest HD you can assume is 15 HD. As there is a max caster level of 8 in this tournament, the highest you are allowed is 8 HD. So that signature doesn't work, but you can change it if you still like the build.

(This is not the true ruling, just my understanding of the rules.)

[Black Plauge]

I'm afraid there's an even more basic problem with the idea.

Polymorph does not allow the assumption of swarm forms. Swarms are by definition multiple creatures and polymorph states that the target changes into "another form of living creature" (note the singular). The only way I know of acheiving a swarm form is via the swarm shifter template for undead (which, being a template, isn't allowed in this tournament).

[SlagMortar]

Lune, I'll second (or is it 3rd or 4th) that the idea that your character is the cloud is pretty cool. I hadn't thought of it like that. He'd be the perfect character to come in WWE style and disrupt a match where his buddy was losing. "Oh no! What's that? That's the Black Cloud's music!" *out of the tunnel rolls the cloud, rolls over the competitors, screams are heard ...

[Boomlaor]

If it would be easier I would be willing to take an inferior bottle that produces smaller clouds. I know you wanted to only go by RAW so this may not be possible but as people were raising such a fus, I thought I would do what I could to resolve their concerns.

Everyone: Would this be more acceptable to you all if it is possible?

Is the issue more of not being able to see the action, or that it is a hard tactic to fight? Well, I'd like to say I still object to it, but styleisticly I think that works. It is a discrete cloud that moves around causing mayhem instead of a huge plume of smoke enveloping the entire arena, I have to admit, that would be a cool spectacle. I couldn't in good conscience object to a 20' radius smoke bottle (but I'm still working out how to counter it. /sigh)

Boomlaor

[SlagMortar]

I'm not sure when the projected start date of the tournament is, but I am going to be out of town from 9/16 to 9/24. The duel arcana looks like it is just about finished so I figured it might be soon. If necessary, I can leave instructions with BP for my character's first several rounds of the grand melee.

[Geisha]

With polymorph, the highest HD you can assume is 15 HD. As there is a max caster level of 8 in this tournament, the highest you are allowed is 8 HD. So that signature doesn't work, but you can change it if you still like the build.


Where does it say a max CL of 8? I just re-read the rules and don't see any mention of that.

As for polymorph not allowing swarms, that's fine I'll switch the form but I need clarification on the above first.

[Tashalar]

Spells cast during the match are limited to the spell and caster level of a straight classed ranger.
That's it... a ranger's caster level is half his ranger level rounded down, ie eight.

It's not immediately obvious if one only skims the rules, but I guess there was a good mechanical reason for BP to put it up this way and not just saying that the maximum caster level is 8? Just because I cannot see it, doesn't mean a thing... ;)

[Geisha]

Ahh bummer...I'll have to come up with something else then.

[Geisha]

Question - if you have a class that grants you a spell-like ability (or speciali ability, or some other type of effect) that casts a high level spell can you use it in the arena?

Lets say I have class that lets me cast Firestorm once/day (just as an example). Will that power be allowed since it's not technically a spell, but an ability of the class?

Also - what about Warlocks. With the CL capped at 8 would he be limited to only using Least/Lesser powers? And what about his eldrich blast? The book says his CL for his blast is 1/2 his class level, so he'd be capped a CL8 at level 16, which does 7d6 damage.

Am I understanding this properly?

[Tashalar]

I'll try to answer these questions - I cannot guarantee that I've got it 100% right, though! ;)

Question - if you have a class that grants you a spell-like ability (or speciali ability, or some other type of effect) that casts a high level spell can you use it in the arena?

Lets say I have class that lets me cast Firestorm once/day (just as an example). Will that power be allowed since it's not technically a spell, but an ability of the class?
Spells are limited as per the rules to 4th level spells. Furthermore, all spell variables are reduced as if the spell was cast by an eigth level caster.

The same would apply to spell-like abilities imo. The Firestorm (it only is an example, I am aware of that) would be disqualified for dealing direct damage as per the rules.

As a sidenote - the easiest would be if you'd not try to find some way to include powerful magic here... it's supposed to be a gladiatorial match, not a Duel Arcana! ;)

Also - what about Warlocks. With the CL capped at 8 would he be limited to only using Least/Lesser powers? And what about his eldrich blast? The book says his CL for his blast is 1/2 his class level, so he'd be capped a CL8 at level 16, which does 7d6 damage. Yes, I think you are understanding this correctly. Missing out on the more powerful invocations is really bothersome makes the warlock a questionable choice imo. Again, I might be missing something here... :worry:

[Black Plauge]

t's not immediately obvious if one only skims the rules, but I guess there was a good mechanical reason for BP to put it up this way and not just saying that the maximum caster level is 8? Just because I cannot see it, doesn't mean a thing...
The reason it's is worded this way is because I'm lazy and don't want to have to rewrite all the tournament rules each time I change the level of the tournament. It's the same reason I don't give a set equipment ammount, but instead refer you to the table in the DMG.

The second reason it's worded that way is because in this manner it restricts both spells cast by characters and spells cast by items. It's also supposed to apply to spell-like abilities, though I suppose the wording isn't too clear on that point.

And Tashalar does have the right of the Warlock, in so much as I can remember. I don't have my books in front of me at the moment, so I'd have to check on invocation progression and caster level for the blast to be sure.

[Geisha]

As a sidenote - the easiest would be if you'd not try to find some way to include powerful magic here... it's supposed to be a gladiatorial match, not a Duel Arcana! ;)


I'm not trying to make an uber powerful character for this. I'm simply trying to find something different to try. So far we have very powerful warriors jumping in, just creating a 17 fighter would feel a little boring to me IMHO.

The master transmogrofist was a fun idea. He could turn into a brass dragon that would have 12 bite attacks or poison or disease or a devouring acid.

Back to the drawing board I go :)

[Black Plauge]

The master transmorgrofist is still a fun idea. You'll just need some different forms to make it work.

[Lord Twig]

Back to the black cloud.

What would happen during the Grand Mêlée? He could come in, uncap his bottle, and the crowd would see nothing. The Grand Mêlée is supposed to be when everyone shows off their abilities.

Personally I think the Eversmoking Bottle is just bad for the purpose of this Tournament.

As for fighting the tactic, I don't think my characters would have any problem. It would effect them, but it wouldn't totally shut them down.

[Benicus]

Mine would be X[.

[Lord Twig]

Mine would be X[.

Well he does have Uncanny Dodge, so that would help against the Sneak Attacks. You would have a 50% miss chance when fighting back, but you would still be able to hit fairly frequently, provided you could determine his square. If he attacks in mêlée I think you locate him automatically.

[Benicus]

You do? I always thought since the concealment you never get to locate him unless it's gone.

But yeah my many many attacks of doom would help me I would guess. Providing any of them connected X[.

[Lord Twig]

A creature can use hearing to find an invisible creature. A character can make a Listen check for this purpose as a free action each round. A Listen check result at least equal to the invisible creature’s Move Silently check result reveals its presence. (A creature with no ranks in Move Silently makes a Move Silently check as a Dexterity check to which an armor check penalty applies.) A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creatureÂ’s location.

and

If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck still knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location.

So the 10' reach of the spiked chain would be a problem.

[Lord Twig]

Another minor point about the grimlock. If his signature is "Being the Cloud of Death" shouldn't he get the 25% discount on the Eversmoking Bottle and not his spiked chain (which the audience would never see)?

And a question about my Dwarf. I have not discounted anything for my Dwarven Defender because his signature is the Defensive Stance. But I was thinking that maybe I could discount his shield(s)? If not that's fine.

[Tashalar]

I'm not trying to make an uber powerful character for this. I'm simply trying to find something different to try. So far we have very powerful warriors jumping in, just creating a 17 fighter would feel a little boring to me IMHO. Yeah, I understand that. I wasn't trying to criticize you for making a powerful character - a (nother) fighter type would just not turn up so many problems for you... ;)

As for fighting the tactic, I don't think my characters would have any problem. It would effect them, but it wouldn't totally shut them down. ... Well he does have Uncanny Dodge, so that would help against the Sneak Attacks. Yeah, the dwarven Defender does have Uncanny Dodge, so he can enter his Defensive Stance and keep the Dodge bonuses. Most of his AC is from armor and shield though - with Wraithstrike he'll most certainly be hit. I don't see how your ranger will be able to deal with the situation, though... the wolf could find him, but you don't want to have a dead wolf, do you? :eek:

So the 10' reach of the spiked chain would be a problem. Indeed. The miss chance in attacking back is bad enough. Not being able to grapple is worse. Not even being able to find him is the 'killer' I guess... Or do you still think that your characters stand a chance?

Hm... any character without Blindsight/sense, Uncanny Dodge or immunity to sneak attacks does not stand much of a chance I guess. It's really an 'evil' build you put up, Lune! ;)

[Lord Twig]

Yeah, the dwarven Defender does have Uncanny Dodge, so he can enter his Defensive Stance and keep the Dodge bonuses. Most of his AC is from armor and shield though - with Wraithstrike he'll most certainly be hit.

Wraithstrike only lasts one round (according to the Spell Compendium). He will run out of spells before Yarden runs out of HPs. He does an average of 12 damage without his sneak attack. So it would take 43 hits before he brought Yarden down. Yarden does 16.5 average, he only needs to hit Cloud about 11 times.

I don't see how your ranger will be able to deal with the situation, though... the wolf could find him, but you don't want to have a dead wolf, do you? :eek:

Never underestimate a Ranger. :)

Indeed. The miss chance in attacking back is bad enough. Not being able to grapple is worse. Not even being able to find him is the 'killer' I guess... Or do you still think that your characters stand a chance?

Now, I am not saying that either of my characters will win hands down. He is still a tough character and would be difficult to deal with, but far from impossible. I just disagree that it would be entertaining for the audience. With a large crowd you won't hear anything on the field. Do you hear what they are saying during a football game? Or a baseball game?

After you have seen the cloud once, you have seen everything there is to see about it. And I will restate my point about the Grand Mêlée. How is everyone supposed to show off if there is nothing but a black cloud over they entire arena and most of the audience?

Would audience approval play any part at all in his matches? Nobody would ever see a signature move, a critical hit, a whiff, or anything. Also, if someone were to cheat inside the cloud, would they be caught?

Hm... any character without Blindsight/sense, Uncanny Dodge or immunity to sneak attacks does not stand much of a chance I guess. It's really an 'evil' build you put up, Lune! ;)

Those type of characters would certainly have a much better chance. The Freedom of Movement really shuts down grapplers (unless there are some rules/abilities I am unaware of), but they really should be able to do more than just grapple.

He really is a rather unbalanced character. Against some he would totally dominate, against others he could get trashed. I honestly think the Dragon Disciple would waste him (if played right).

In the last tournament everyone complained about Ok Bok. She didn't win, but I would argue that some of her matches were not very fun.

[Tashalar]

Could you supply a link to the first tournament please?

Okay, I see that your DD will be able to hold his own for quite a while and I'm interested on how you'll play your ranger! ;)

I agree with you concerning all you've said about The Cloud in the Grand Mêlée and in combats in general.

This whole thing is about fun after all and it might not be that fun for most players to go against The Cloud...

A combat that lasts 30 or more rounds would also be a bit boring imo - probably the others would be finished already for a long time and be waiting on that battle... The Cloud has to hit really often while his opponent searches for him and has a nasty miss chance when he finds him. It could well last a lot more than 30 rounds with opponents who have uncanny dodge!?

In any case - I'm not experienced with tournaments... the one over at 3ebb is the first I've ever participated, so it's up to you more experienced players to judge if The Cloud might ruin the fun or not. And up to BP to decide in the end. :)

[Black Plauge]

Unfortunately most of the first tournament matches no longer exist. The last few are archived here, but many of the earlier ones, which took place on 3EBB, were deleted.

[akiko]

It seems like there is a significant backlash against the cloud which IIRC was one of the stipulations in the rules. So I guess BP does have to rule whether he is in or out.

[Black Plauge]

There appears to be at least some inclination towards leaniency if it weren't for the fact that the Bottle of Smoke has such a huge radius of effect.

I'm not making a decision yet, but how would people feel if in this one case I allowed a custom magic item which generated a permanent obscuring mist effect?

[Geisha]

Does Wild Shape have the level 8 limit? According to the description it's based on the druid's level, not caster level. Can somebody verify this?

[Black Plauge]

Wild Shape is a Supernatural ability, not a Spell-Like one and thus doesn't have a caster level associated with it.

[Geisha]

Sweet, I figured out what I can do that won't violate rules then and will be very interesting to play. On to creation! lol

[SlagMortar]

I would have no problem with obscuring mist. In melee it would only give a 20% miss chance which is the same as Blur.

[Boomlaor]

There appears to be at least some inclination towards leaniency if it weren't for the fact that the Bottle of Smoke has such a huge radius of effect.

I'm not making a decision yet, but how would people feel if in this one case I allowed a custom magic item which generated a permanent obscuring mist effect?I would be ok with that. I think it strikes a good balance between maintaining the concept of the character and maintaining the spectacle for the crowd.

[Lord Twig]

Obscuring Mist is stationary once created. Would he leave a trail of mist behind him? That is, everytime he moves a new cloud would be formed around him and the old one would remain in place?

That would make sense to me and it would also give him the opportunity to create a larger area of mist to help hide him.

[generaljimX]

To add to that, it fades in the normal amount of time for the caster level, when he's moved. This could, though, cause a problem for him if he did want to create a larger area of smoke.

Either way, I'd be fine with a permanent obscuring mist effect.

[Geisha]

My new and improved shapeshifter is up :)

I'm fine with a permanent obscurring mist effect as well.

[Lord Twig]

The whiff rule still bugs me a little.

So you have two experienced gladiators standing toe-to-toe tearing each other apart, each has 4 attacks and on average hits with 3 and misses with one. The audience will like them less and less every round.

Okay, most of the time they will hit armor, but if you decided to use Dex instead of armor, you now have an additional advantage. Your dodge AC is worth more than armor AC because if you dodge you have the chance of reducing your opponent's to-hit roll and damage.

Maybe if you whiff with all of your attacks that round? Or just the one if you only attacked once?

[Lune]

First, to clear up how it would likely work with the obscuring mist. I believe BP was going for an item that created a continual obscuring mist eminating from the bottle. Thus if the character moved, then the area that the mist created would be recreated where the bottle was and also remain behind where it was before for 4 rounds (the same for both obscuring mist and the bottle of smoke, actually).

So what do you think, Lord Twig? Will you allow me to play my character if I use obscuring mist?

[Lord Twig]

So what do you think, Lord Twig? Will you allow me to play my character if I use obscuring mist?

It's not up to me! :)

Honestly I feel a little bad that the character won't be played with the Eversmoking Bottle. But with the bottle wouldn't be fair to the other gladiators. Just my opinion.

[Lune]

Actually, it is up to you since at this point you are the only one with an objection to a participant. BP had already ruled on the premise of the character. So now that you are the only one who possibly has an objection, the fate of my character is in your hands.

Honestly, I don't see how my character isn't fair. At least he is there to hit while the halfling outrider is flying 1100ft. above the arena taking pot shots at those who can't reach him. Even those who can he can outpace. At 110 movement it would be hard to even catch him.

Not that I have a problem with the character. I like him. ;) Just setting a presidence here.

[Lord Twig]

I misunderstood for a moment there. I thought you were saying that I was the only one to object to the Eversmoking Bottle, but I guess you wanted to know if I objected to the continuous Obscuring Mist.

Sorry I didn't say so more clearly before. I would have no problem with it if you are willing. I honestly think it would actually fit the stylistic theme of your character even better. I can see him being a 40' cloud, rolling forward to envelope someone. A huge cloud that just sat over the arena would just be the environment. It wouldn't have that feeling of being alive.

[Tashalar]

An obscuring mist effect as per the rules of the spell (although the mist will be recreated when The Cloud moves) would be fine with me.

It still means I have to figure out a way to counter this, but mechanically the obscuring mist is also not as strong. Might be a good compromise in the end - then the work that went into the character is not without any use! ;)

I don't think the halfling outrider flying at immense height is so much of a problem, Lune. The Cloud was much more problematic with that eversmoking bottle imo. ;)

[Boomlaor]

On that note, however, I do think there should be a limit of how high you can fly over the arena. Once again, it's no spectacle to be up out of sight taking potshots (or if the opponent can fly too being chased or whatever). I can see going a little bit over the highest seats in the arena, but all combat should be within the range of clear sight imo, say maybe no more than 100' over the top of the arena (however high the arena is, so maybe a max altitude of 250ish feet?

[Lune]

I agree that the 80ft. (40' diameter, remember) cloud would be hard to represent as a character. However, the 40' (20' radius) cloud would be much better. I hadn't had the option of using obscuring mist though and was limited to what was available.

Also, please explain how a halfling outrider at immense height is not a problem as it can't be hit at all by most competitors while my character is a problem?

[Lord Twig]

I would agree that unlimited height is a problem as well.

I really don't want to rain on peoples' parade, but some limits are helpful to keep the tournament moving.

Someone that can fly so high that they are out of bow shot and then flies around and drops rocks on people, once again, isn't very fun.

I haven't looked too closely at our hippogryph mounted halfling, but I don't think that would be his intension anyway. So even without a limit he probably wouldn't be a problem. I just think that it would be good to fix something that might be exploited.

[Tashalar]

Well, the halfling would have to get that high in the first place... ;)

And there are several ways of becoming able to fly...

There are less (obvious) ways of beating The Cloud imo...

Since everyone has agreed that the Obscuring Mist effect would make for a neat Gladiator signature and noone seems intent on insisting on the no-custom-items-rule, The Cloud is ready to go! ;)

Although one has to wait until all entrants have posted and have voiced there opinion if so desired.

Btw - when would the tournament start approximately? Or rather - when will the deadline for entry of characters be after the Duel Arcana Championship is over?

[Boomlaor]

What's officially your "signature" now Geisha?

[Geisha]

Guess I can't do breath weapons lol. Forgot that wild shape doesn't grant that ability. Oh well.

Lion's Pounce will be my signature move (sheet updated).

[Black Plauge]

As I look at it, the Duel Arcan will be over by the end of the week, assuming LT updates things on time. If that turns out to be the case, I expect that the character submission deadline will be Friday of next week (the 29th). That'll give me the weekend for a final review of all characters and matches could start on the 2nd of October (Monday in 2 weeks), if there are no corrections that need to be made. If there are corrections that need to be made, then matches would probably start on Wednesday (1 day for people to make corrections, one for me to double check the corrections).

Of course, if LT is slow about updating things, or my thoughts about the amount of damage that will be dealt over the course of the next few rounds prove to be overly optimistic, then those dates will be pushed back slightly.

[Lord Twig]

I'll be trying my best to keep things updated. Don't want to drag things out on the final match! :)

[Darius]

Obviously I do not play enough high level D&D, or I wouldn't be asking this question:
If I have a class ability that temporarily increases a stat, does that increase stack with a magic item that also increases that stat?

[akiko]

Magic items that increase stats usually grant enhancement bonuses. If the class you have grants a different type of bonus (unnamed, sacred, luck, etc) then they stack as per normal stacking rules. If it is also an enhancement bonus then they overlap.

[Darius]

Thanks!

[Black Plauge]

The Duel Arcana is over and the deadlines are official now.

[Tashalar]

However, unless any PC can discern what he looks like (either because of the smoke cloud or if he is invisible at the time) then I would prefer a graphic be used for just the cloud of smoke effect. This should help to avoid meta-gaming as the player would know where Moniker is but their character would not.

Great mini first and foremost, Lune! :nod:

I'm not sure about that meta-gaming part though... it's up to BP as usual, but this tournament is all-open and players are supposed to be able to use the knowledge of the other's characters on the one hand but are obviously not allowed to use other player knowledge in combat. Where to draw the line?

It would be stupid to post something like the following:
"I ready that should he attack me in melee, I'll try to trip him" or something similar if the other player reads it and the other character then refrains from attacking in melee but full attacks at range...

Can anyone tell us about how it was handled in the last tournament? The Duel Arcana cannot really be used to compare this one with as the wizards and sorcerers know what the others are casting when they do (as they (always) make their spellcraft checks)...

[Lune]

Thanx, Tashalar. :D

Bear in mind that because none of the other characters thus far have blindsight (one has blindsense, but that is different), they don't know what actually resides within the cloud. In fact, as far as I can tell, none of them even knows that anything does exist inside the cloud. If they do know, I would like to know how. ;)

This also means that they don't know even who Moniker is, much less what he looks like, what kind of weapon he uses or his tactics. Well, maybe a bit of his tactics because they can see where the cloud goes but not much. Basically, Moniker never lets himself be seen if he can help it. And he most often times can help it. Thus they wouldn't know that he was going to make a trip attempt anyway cause they dont even know he is using a spiked chain.

[Noocytx]

Quick question about Lune's character.

Just wondering if the obscuring mist is going to be in effect before Moniker ever walks onto the field.

I just assumed that it would taken an action to unstopper, or I might be confusing this with the eversmoking bottle. Is the item you are using use activiated or continuous effect? I believed I just answered my own question, but will still ask anyways.

[Boomlaor]

they dont even know he is using a spiked chain.
Well, since it's an imaginary weapon I don't know this for sure, but I do know that you can generally tell the difference between wounds caused by a sword or an axe (or even different types of swords). I imagine that in a world where spiked chains are prevalent, the wounds left by a spiked chain would be easily recognizable. Moreover, as BP said in the rules, it is unprofessional to kill a gladiator. Assuming that at least one of his prior opponents survived the bout, he would know that he had been tripped by a spiked chain, and would have related that to others. No one may know what he looks like, but I guarantee that his tactics would be well known.

Boomlaor

[Lune]

I believe that is assuming a lot for running with RAW. But alas, it is neither of our place to judge on that ruling. I'm sure they would be able to tell whether it was slashing, piercing or bludgeoning. But as for what actual weapon was used, I doubt that. Even so, knowing the weapon being used doesn't garantee he will be using that weapon. He has several. And even if they knew what weapon he was using they wouldn't know where he was or when he was swinging it. He has a lot of different weapon tactics to use and likely several of his past bouts have had a wide range of injuries. And he doesn't always trip... ;)

Not sure what you meant by it being an imaginary weapon.

Also, Moniker will be using the bottle when he enters the battlefield. As far as I can tell this does not violate the rules of the tournament. He prefers no one to lay eyes on him.

[akiko]

He's talking about that the spiked chain doesn't actually exist.

[Darius]

Not sure what you meant by it being an imaginary weapon.
Perhaps a better choice of words would have been fictitious i.e no real world counterpart.

[Lune]

Ah, as in what he said has no bearings within the realm of D&D in general or this tourney? Gotcha. ;)

[Black Plauge]

I'm not sure about that meta-gaming part though... it's up to BP as usual, but this tournament is all-open and players are supposed to be able to use the knowledge of the other's characters on the one hand but are obviously not allowed to use other player knowledge in combat. Where to draw the line?

The way I handle this is as follows:

1. All action posts are public. I do not accept PMs with a character's actions, though rules questions prior to acting are okay. This helps with possible me avoid mistakes and allows others to catch the mistakes I make far more easily.

2. Intent always trumps mechanics. Whenever possible, intent will be based on the IC portion of a player's post. If there isn't an IC portion, I will use the OOC portion of post to determine intent. This is especially important when there is a rules violation in a character's OOC post (say a miscounting of squares for the purpose of movement) or when rule 3 comes into play (see below). If intent is unclear or could go one of two ways, I'll generally PM the player to ask for clarification.

3. I reserve the right to force a modification to a character's actions if I feel that they do not comply with that character's IC knowledge. This includes, but is not limited to, forcing a character to select squares randomly to attack when they are not aware of the exact location of their target and disallowing an action that I feel is out of character and expressly designed to avoid triggering an opponent's readied action. Any such modifications will be expressly pointed out in italic text within the update. In most cases I will contact the player involved prior to posting the update in order to let them know and to give them a chance to argue their position or make a change.


As for the issue of what weapon caused a particular wound, that would require a Heal check. However, given the popularity of the games, and the fact that most gladiators don't treat their own wounds, a Gather Information check could also be used to reveal it.

[Lord Twig]

I would seem pretty unlikely to me that Moniker would walk around town in a permanent obscuring mist. The town guard would most likely not appreciate it. He could, of course, go around hooded and cloaked to hide his appearance.

All gladiators and their weapons would have to be checked by the tournament officials before Moniker was allowed into the ring. Bottom line, moniker will be seen a some point.

Having the obscuring mist active when he walks out on the field would violate the rules of the tournament. If I had a ring of invisibility I could not walk out with it active, so an obscuring mist is out as well. That is the way that I read the rules at least. The ruling is up to BP of course.

[Black Plauge]

Having the obscuring mist active when he walks out on the field would violate the rules of the tournament. If I had a ring of invisibility I could not walk out with it active, so an obscuring mist is out as well. That is the way that I read the rules at least. The ruling is up to BP of course.
LT is correct in this matter. Or rather, he would be if the item in question cast an obscuring mist effect. Lune and I have worked out that the bottle will work as stated except that it will have a 20' limited radius instead of the larger ones described in the DMG. He will still pay the list price for this reduced functionality bottle. In this case, since the bottle creates a continuous effect, it is possible for Moniker to start the match already in the cloud just like it's possible for characters to start the match wearing stat boosting items.

This is supposed to be a fight, not a race to see who can get dressed for the prom the fastest.

[Tashalar]

This is supposed to be a fight, not a race to see who can get dressed for the prom the fastest.
Absolutely true, I guess no-one is going to refute this. :nod:

I don't like where this is going though... Almost everyone had some kind of argument against The Cloud. The solution was that you, BP and Lune as his player developed a custom item that emits Obscuring Mist, similar to the Eversmoking bottle effect but limited to a 20' area and as per the rules of the spell. We other players agreed to this.

I don't really care if you have made it a continuous effect (which spares him the standard action of activating it), but I do care about what Lune now derives from this. Simply put he is saying "I've got this neat custom-made item you agreed on and sorry everyone but you know nothing about my character because you can never see him".

Am I getting this wrong? If I am, then please explain to me, but I sincerely think that everyone should know everything (or at least almost everything) about the other gladiators. The Cloud included. There have been lots of combats in the past and we are supposed to know them. If anyone wants to argue that some power of his is unknown to the others, then that's fine with me. This includes The Cloud, but goes no further than this imo.

Let's not make it overly complicated? Or is it me complicating things? :tsk:
I'm open for criticism everyone...

[Noocytx]

Here's my interpretation of the situtation.

The item Lune has is weaker in almost every way to the eversmoking bottle, except it spares him a standard action (which can be huge in battle).

The only thing which I don't like is that the concept of never, ever being seen didn't work with the eversmoking bottle concept. By creation of this continuous custom item, it has changed the outlook on this character. It also speeds him up in game terms because he no longer has to spend a round preparing himself and turning himself into "the cloud."

Just my two cents.

[Lord Twig]

LT is correct in this matter. Or rather, he would be if the item in question cast an obscuring mist effect. Lune and I have worked out that the bottle will work as stated except that it will have a 20' limited radius instead of the larger ones described in the DMG. He will still pay the list price for this reduced functionality bottle. In this case, since the bottle creates a continuous effect, it is possible for Moniker to start the match already in the cloud just like it's possible for characters to start the match wearing stat boosting items.

This is supposed to be a fight, not a race to see who can get dressed for the prom the fastest.

Okay, that makes sense.

Just one question as to how things work. Will it function like the Eversmoking Bottle "totally obscuring vision across a 50-foot spread" (now 20-foot) or like the Obscuring Mist where "The vapor obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target)."

The question more directly is: Does he have total concealment no matter what or does he only have concealment (20% miss chance) if you are only 5 feet away?

[Black Plauge]

The item functions exactly as an eversmoking bottle except that it has a maximum radius of effect of 20 ft (and no secondary radius). It still takes a standard action to activate or seal (and operates continuously in between these actions) and it completely blocks sight. In this respect it's actually more like pyrotechnics than obscuring mist (except that it doesn't have the Str & Dex penalties). He is still paying the list price of the eversmoking bottle in the DMG (minus the signature discount).

I'm not going to get involved in the discussion about how the use of the bottle outside of the arena would go. These discussions have no real game effect and simply flavor your character.

I will state that every character has at the very least heard about every other character (if not faught them) and knows what their signature is. If it's in there signature line you know about it. Also, if the character has benefited from the signature discount for a particular piece of equipment, then you know about it. Beyond that, let me just say that you don't know their exact OOC stats, but you do know something of their general capabilities.

Also, every character can take advantage of the ability to have magic items active when entering the arena. You don't need to spend an action activating flaming, frost, etc. enchantments. When you come into the arena your blade can already be on fire (or whatever). The same can be done with any other item that once activated operates until deactivated. The limitation, of course, is items which cast spells. These you have to activate in the arena.

[Lune]

I would seem pretty unlikely to me that Moniker would walk around town in a permanent obscuring mist. The town guard would most likely not appreciate it.
Your right. Thats why he doesn't tend to walk around the city much. He isn't a very social guy. Typically he will hire a coach to take him to his summer home outside the city so that the smoke wont penetrate the outside of the coach. He also enjoys having tea with his grimlock friends but always has it brought by a blind man. It wouldn't matter anyway as he always keeps the cloud up, but he figures it is better to be safe.

All gladiators and their weapons would have to be checked by the tournament officials before Moniker was allowed into the ring.
True, but what this has to do with the other competitors seeing Moniker I have no idea. They wouldn't want to give away who he is because it is part of the nestalgia surrounding his gladiator persona. Less people would pay to see him fight if they knew what he was really about. It is the mystery that draws them.

Having the obscuring mist active when he walks out on the field would violate the rules of the tournament.
It is not an obscuring mist effect. It is an eversmoking bottle. A continuous use item. What rule does this violate?

Lord Twig...I get the feeling your nitpicking me. Surely it is not on purpose?

I don't like where this is going though... Almost everyone had some kind of argument against The Cloud. The solution was that you, BP and Lune as his player developed a custom item that emits Obscuring Mist, similar to the Eversmoking bottle effect but limited to a 20' area and as per the rules of the spell. We other players agreed to this.
The arguement against my character was that the radius of the cloud was too big. BP changed that. Why make it more complicated? Why make it obscuring mist effect? There isn't even an item that gives that kind of effect.

I don't really care if you have made it a continuous effect (which spares him the standard action of activating it), but I do care about what Lune now derives from this. Simply put he is saying "I've got this neat custom-made item you agreed on and sorry everyone but you know nothing about my character because you can never see him".
I'm sorry you have a problem with this. Do you have any reason to refute that line of thinking either logically or accourding to RAW or the rules of this tournament?

If anyone wants to argue that some power of his is unknown to the others, then that's fine with me. This includes The Cloud, but goes no further than this imo.
Ok, so that is what I did. Why is there an issue with this then?

Noocytx: I also wanted to point out that there was never a stipulation made that the activation of the eversmoking bottle that Moniker has is any different than the standard one. Only the radius will have changed.

I just want to say that I am surprised at the ammount of resistance I have got from entering this character. If anyone has issue with my character as is feel free to post it here and it can and will be considered by BP. He has made a ruling that satiates the concern of the area of effect that the bottle creates for those who took issue with it even though the character was already admissable via the rules of the tournament per BP himself prior to me ever entering him. Now that this issue is resolved, lets move on.

[Lord Twig]

I am really not trying to nitpick, just trying to get a clarification on how things will work. I think I understand it now so no big deal.

BP is right about the effects outside the arena not mattering. I just didn't want to have my tactics questioned because "There is no way you could know that!"

ANYWAY...

My characters are pretty strait forward and their tactics will be fairly strait forward as well. Most likely it will never be an issue. I look forward to seeing Moniker (and all the other gladiators) in action!

[Tashalar]

Ok, so that is what I did. Why is there an issue with this then?
You were proclaiming that we know near to nothing about your character. That's quite a difference to arguing a power or two are unknown. Read your posts again.

Actually - don't. Even though I could say another thing or two in response to your post, I do agree with you that we should let the matter rest and get to the fun part.

I'm still looking forward to Mercutio's entry. He's waiting until the last second it seems... probably so that no-one can react in any way, eh Mercutio? :D

[akiko]

I wouldn't doubt that he's forgotten about this. He seems quite busy lately.

[Chris Chandler]

Yeah, Merc. is swamped - He's finishing up his service this year, or early next year, but is starting up grad school. He makes for a really good spectator though -

[Tashalar]

He makes for a really good spectator though
I am sincerely hoping for spectators. The tournament taking place at 3ebb atm is nice, but there's not enough action going on 'around' the match... With all the taunts, bragging and stuff that might come up in a gladiatorial match, we need a solid crowd to cheer and boooh and all that...

That makes up a great part of the fun, eh? We don't want to leave it all to BP, do we? :)

[Chris Chandler]

You know what - we might try to encourage a "crowd" mentality with influence from "spectating posters". I know we're doing a poll, but perhaps each "vote" could be accompanied by an IC "crowd reaction" PMed to the DM to be put in as he sees fit, in addition to the back and forth between the anchor and the color commentator.

[Mercutio]

Yeah, I really wanted to play, but I'm thinking it's just not in the cards for right now. I haven't really had the time to sit down and puzzle out a character. All the free time I used to have is spent doing reading and writing for grad school, and I don't have as much slack time at work now that school is back in session.

[Tashalar]

Neat character Noocytx... :?

I don't get the last entries though - 3 3rd level spells? Do you want to have something cast on you before a fight? If so - then what spells?

What about your spell storing daggers... will you be able to store spells in them ahead of time? I guess so, eh? :roll:

In any case - I've counted the contestants and the number is 15! Too bad we don't have one more, though...

[Noocytx]

Yep, those spells are the spells that are going to be casted in the daggers by an NPC caster.

I wasn't sure if I needed to post them or not, and they might change from battle to battle (most likely not though).

[Black Plauge]

You will need to post them. You can change them when purchasing replacements, but you won't know your opponent before purchase.

[Tashalar]

Sign up is closed... what does that mean for the characters that have been entered so far?

They were going to be looked over by you, BP, and then changed so that there are no errors. What about edits that players might do in this time? Are they forbidden? If so, what is forbidden? Changing classes, items and the like should be I think - only 'necessary' changes so that the character abides by the rules should be allowed?

[Noocytx]

I agree with Tashalar, which sadly makes my last entry really rushed. It's okay though, she turned out the way I wanted her to. Not crazy optimized, but I have a few tricks up my sleeve with her.

Now what to do with the grand melee, she can't do much there. Will probably hold off anything big until later. Will try to post spells for her tomorrow, I'm in a rush to leave right now (cousin's 1st birthday party, and then my uncles welcome back from Iraq party [different sides of the family]). I will have something up there, but I haven't decided exactly what yet.

[Black Plauge]

Only changes which are necessary to complie with the rules are allowed at this point.

[Black Plauge]

I've started my review. Thus far I've gotten to the first three entries. I will continue work on this later tonight and tomorrow.

Also, if everyone could help me out with this. The character check is the most tedious part of the tournament for me. The more you guys check each other out, the less work there is for me. Thanks. I appreciate it.

[Tashalar]

I've been looking closely at most entries (for obvious reasons) and have remarked a thing or two here and there or have even calculated through every stat (as in Benicus' case - I'll see if he has finally adjusted his character sheet by now btw)...

But now I thought we cannot really help you... if I go through a character and don't find any error - won't you have to go through them again, too?

[Benicus]

Ok Ok I will fix it gosh.

But yeah I truely am sorry for putting it off this long...

EDIT: I think it has finally been done (finished).

[Tashalar]

Okay, I decided on going through "The Rock's" character sheet (sorry I'm picking a more or less easy one... but I don't know anything about pyrokineticists for example! :D)

What I noted:
Hit Dice are: 7d10 + 10d12 + 102 (6x17=102, not 105)
Hp are: 10 + 6*5,5 + 10*6,5 + 102 = 210 hp
EDIT: Wups - just saw the toughness feat, so it is 213 hp. You might ask if BP allows Improved Toughness instead.

Will save adds up to +11 I think (+2 resistance +7 dd + 2 fighter)

I don't get the calculation of the cost for the shields... shouldn't it be less?
How do you calculate the cost for a mighty longbow +7?

Okay, I found a few more things... but saw quickly enough that I was wrong about them... ;)
Other than what I found I think the walking weapon arsenal is ready to go! Go Rock! :cool:

[Black Plauge]

But now I thought we cannot really help you... if I go through a character and don't find any error - won't you have to go through them again, too?
I will go through each character myself, but if errors are caught and corrected before I get to them then I won't have to check the character multiple times.

Ideally, for me, I would only have to check a chracter once to verify that it's totally legal. If I find mistakes, that means I'm going to have to look at that character again once the mistakes are fixed.

[Lord Twig]

Okay, I decided on going through "The Rock's" character sheet (sorry I'm picking a more or less easy one... but I don't know anything about pyrokineticists for example! :D)

Thanks for the once over! I will address the concerns below.

What I noted:
Hit Dice are: 7d10 + 10d12 + 102 (6x17=102, not 105)
Hp are: 10 + 6*5,5 + 10*6,5 + 102 = 210 hp
EDIT: Wups - just saw the toughness feat, so it is 213 hp. You might ask if BP allows Improved Toughness instead.

How about it BP? Can I have Improved Toughness instead of Toughness. :)

Will save adds up to +11 I think (+2 resistance +7 dd + 2 fighter)

I get +1 to Will saves from my Mage Slayer feat.

I don't get the calculation of the cost for the shields... shouldn't it be less?

I don't think so.
17,257x.75=12,942.75 (Winged Shield)
30 Shield + 150 MW + 3000 Adamant +1000 Enhancement = 4,180x.75=3,135 (Tower Shield)

How do you calculate the cost for a mighty longbow +7?

100 Bow + 300 MW + 700 Str +2000 Enhancement = 3,100

Okay, I found a few more things... but saw quickly enough that I was wrong about them... ;)
Other than what I found I think the walking weapon arsenal is ready to go! Go Rock! :cool:

He is a really strait forward character. Still, I hope to make it through a round or two.

[Noocytx]

I just realized my strategy has completly changed... :\

When I first read over metamagic rods, I thought since they didn't alter the spell slot of the level it is being cast from that it would be allowed. Afterall, spending all the money on them (over a 1/3 for a lesser quicken rod) would be like spending all your money on a +6 item.

Then I went through the rules to see what was said, and realized that items that change the effective level of the spell do not count. Bummer.

So, is it my understanding that I'm not allowed to go change these items then, since they are allowable by the tournament?
(This is what I get for getting a copy of the rules and never coming back and updating my own copy. :nod:)

Edit: If one was to rule argue, this is how I reread after thinking about it (I guess I like them how they are). Metamagic rods state that they hold the essence of a metamagic feat, yet they don't alter the spell slot of the spell slot of the altered spell. Does it change the spell's effective level, because the item in question doesn't seem to change the spell slot of the altered spell ever. It just grants his spells a benefit a limited times of day.

It's early, and I only got a few hours of sleep so I could be completly inchorent with my thinking.

On a side note, I'm going to go add some spells to Thea's NPC spellcasting.

[Tashalar]

Well, without wanting to get into a discussion about the rules, I'd say that the metamagic rod of quicken spell should be dealt with as BP suggested (I would think his view is correct), but that Noocytx may pick another item instead...

One could argue that he made an error and has to suffer the consequences, but as a competing player I'd vote to let him pick something else. :)

@Lord Twig: Thanks for the explanation on costs... so it is 100 per +1 mighty? I've never come across this - only the +4 from the DMG - where did you get that from? I might just be blind though... ;)

[akiko]

PHB, or here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#longbowComposite).

Each point of Strength bonus granted by the bow adds 100 gp to its cost.

[Black Plauge]

How about it BP? Can I have Improved Toughness instead of Toughness.
No. The requirement is for Toughness.

So, is it my understanding that I'm not allowed to go change these items then, since they are allowable by the tournament?
I will allow you to swap these items out since it's apparent from the fact that you went with the really expensive ones that are only useful on 0-level spells that you didn't realize all the implications of the rules.

[Noocytx]

I'll try to get them swapped out within 24 hours. Thanks for letting me do so.

Edit: Did a quick redo on both characters equipment. Believe everything adds up right now.

[Tashalar]

Decided to look over your second character Lord Twig. I am only choosing yours because I am able to check them, believe me! :)

Here's what I found:

Hit Dice: 17d8+51 (122 hp)
Hp are 8 + 16*4,5 + 17*Conmod (+2) = 114

(didn't do skills)

As BP has remarked it with another character - you get the discount on the arrows, too.

Sorry, no time to do the wolf - might be able to later, will edit then...

[Lord Twig]

Decided to look over your second character Lord Twig. I am only choosing yours because I am able to check them, believe me! :)

Here's what I found:


Hp are 8 + 16*4,5 + 17*Conmod (+2) = 114

Actually it's 8 + (16*5) + (17*2) = 122

But I did still have +51 for Con which was incorrect. I changed it to +34.

(didn't do skills)

As BP has remarked it with another character - you get the discount on the arrows, too.

Fixed the arrows.

Sorry, no time to do the wolf - might be able to later, will edit then...

Cool, thanks! If I have time I will return the favor. ;)

[SlagMortar]

I made a quick run through the following characters and here's the possible problems I found. I'm short a lot of books so sorry if I am incorrect. Sorry I didn't have a chance to do it earlier.

Brunhilda:
A 7th level barbarian has normal rage, reckless rage gives +2 more Str and Con. It looks like she gets a +4 to hit during rage when it should be +3? Also, damage on magic rock should be 3d6+12, not 3d6+11. Looks like you forgot the weapon enhancement.
178 HP +48 HP = 226, not 236.

Achiliene "Death Dancer" Odieon:
AC: +9 Dex +3 Item +3 Dervish +2 Ring +1 Bracers = 28 not 30. Also, what item gives a +3 to AC?
Dervish gives an enhancement bonus to speed and so does not stack with boots of striding and springing.
Your Gloves of Dex and Ioun Stone each give an enhancement bonus. These do not stack.

Moniker:
I think grapple should be 18 not 20. The Armbands of Might contribute to strength checks and skill checks, which I don't think grapple is either.
Trip check should be 14 not 26. It looks like you included base attack bonus.

Elgin Falwealth:
Greater Mage Armor has an expensive material component which you don't appear to have any of.

Once again, sorry if I made a mistake. I'm looking forward to the tournament! It's the first one I've ever entered so be gentle. :)

[Chris Chandler]

SlagMortar - So noted. I checked the Complete Arcane version, and you were right. I added the component, while taking away one tanglefoot bag. Thanks!

[Tashalar]

Whups... seems like I got the whole HP thing wrong... I always calculated with half HD not with half HD rounded up... it's not half +1 actually is it? Fighter example: half +1 would be 6,5 per level? Or is it just 6?

I won't edit my characters (as hp for both of them are wrong) until BP has looked over them though.

Once again, sorry if I made a mistake. I'm looking forward to the tournament! It's the first one I've ever entered so be gentle. Absolutely. We'll be gentle... but we're not talking about our characters now, are we? :roll:

---------------------

Looked over the wolf now, too. Everything seems perfect except the passage you just quoted from the SRD. It states that the wolf has a +1 check modifier for the trip - since your animal companion now has a +3 Str modifier, it should be changed to +3. ;)

Also looked at your skills:
For skill ranks I get 6x4 + 6x16 = 120 ranks.
I only counted 110 at first until I saw that those tumble skill ranks are cross-class. If you'd marked this, it would have been easier... (for me that is... ;) )
Jump you have a final modifier of +20?
I only get +16 (5r + 4 Str +5 competence from boots +2 tumble synergy).

That's it. Didn't find much throughout all your characters... :) The only thing that would have helped in checking your characters would be a better format for all the information. It's hard to find the information one is looking for...

@BP: don't feel rushed in having to check those characters... if you take a few days longer, that's fine! :)

[Lune]

Moniker:
I think grapple should be 18 not 20. The Armbands of Might contribute to strength checks and skill checks, which I don't think grapple is either.
Trip check should be 14 not 26. It looks like you included base attack bonus.
Hrm...I thought it went to grapple checks too. I dont have my books on me so for now I will make the correction. ;) Oh, and yeah...for some reason I had added my BAB to my Trip checks. Both are corrected.

Also, Tashalar:
Coravel Auvrearretyn should have +5 more AC from his Int bonus that he gets from Duelist. You also may want to make note of your dodge bonus to your AC in the AC column.

Spikey: You have Concealing Amorpha as a 3rd level power. Did you mean for the greater version?

Couple of questions:
Noocytx: I saw that your character is capable of casting 6th level spells. However, with the limitation of "spell and caster level of a straight classed ranger." in effect were you planning on just channeling them with arcane strike since you can't cast them? Actually, you dont have to answer that. I don't need to know your character's tactics...just didn't want to be surprised when I saw force walls popping up around the arena. ;)

Also, was there ever a ruling made on flying combatants? As in how high they can go. Obviously they are still limited to the same horizontal plane, but what about verticle? Most characters that are competing are unable to fly and lack the range to reach Charmaine Thornleaf. Of those who can fly, none can match the mount's speed thus striking him in melee might be an exercise in futility. It is not that I personally have a problem with it - I believe my character should have that issue well taken care of - but that it might impede an actual fight and be more of a target practice. With the ability to dip into range, fire and duck back out of range of anyone on the ground it would certainly be that way. Thought I might bring it up. This is more for the tournament than myself. Personally, I like the character and believe he will do well.

[Black Plauge]

I haven't made a ruling on maximum height yet because I don't think it will be a problem. If it does become a problem, then I will introduce a cieling.

[Tashalar]

Coravel Auvrearretyn should have +5 more AC from his Int bonus that he gets from Duelist. You also may want to make note of your dodge bonus to your AC in the AC column.
Okay, I'll add it as soon as BP has gone over it.

When not wearing armor or using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#flatFooted) or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.
That's why I didn't add it at first - there's a lot of conditions to be met before it counts.

Spikey: You have Concealing Amorpha as a 3rd level power. Did you mean for the greater version? Yes, thanks for pointing that out. I will also change it as soon as BP has looked over the character.


I don't need to know your character's tactics...just didn't want to be surprised when I saw force walls popping up around the arena.
I've asked him that a while ago and he said that we are supposed to post complete characters. Leaving those spells blank just wouldn't do... ;)

Thanks for the info - if there's more on my characters, please go on and tell me!

[Geisha]

I've checked my character twice now and can't find anything wrong with it now, so hopefully there won't be any remaning issues with mine.

*Gets excited to play*

[Boomlaor]

Brunhilda:
A 7th level barbarian has normal rage, reckless rage gives +2 more Str and Con. It looks like she gets a +4 to hit during rage when it should be +3? Also, damage on magic rock should be 3d6+12, not 3d6+11. Looks like you forgot the weapon enhancement.
178 HP +48 HP = 226, not 236.


Fixed, thanks!

[Tashalar]

Could someone please drop me a hint on whether '6' are the right number of hp for a fighter level or '6,5'? Thanks!

Other than that I decided to look over Darius's monk.

A few things:
Bat Tattoo and Ioun Stone both grant an enhancement bonus and therefore do not stack. Why not get the gloves of Dex +2, another nifty item for the 6,000 that you then have left over and one more nice tattoo?

Fly speed is correct but note that you have to use a standard action to activate the boots. My guess would be that you'd have to do it inside the arena?

Grapple: 18=+12 base +2 Str+4 Feat Since Foom Fang Fing (from now on called FFF) has a +4 Str bonus, it should be 20.

Exchange flurry of blows with greater flurry or add greater flurry to the list.

Monk at 1st level: 24 ranks
Monk 2 through 12= 55 ranks
Tattooed monk 13-17=25 ranks
Total ranks: 104
1st level is 4x4 +4 bonus for human = 20 I think. Final skill points should be 100.

Knowledge (religion) 4=4+0 Int Pre-req for Tattooed Monk is 8 ranks. You'll need to transfer a few from other skills.

That's all I could find! :)

You might ask BP if there is some item on your list for which you might get a signature cost reduction... although I'm rather pessimistic on that issue...

[SlagMortar]

Tashalar, I think it is 6 hit points per hit die for a fighter. It is the size of hit die, i.e. 10, divided by 2 plus 1. That's what I used and BP didn't mention it being wrong when he checked over Rakesh.

[Black Plauge]

Slag is correct. 5.5 is not half for a d10 HD, it's average (there is a difference). We're using half HD +1.

And Tashlar, I'd appreciate it if you made the fixes before I got to the character sheet. Otherwise I'm going to be catching alot of the same mistakes that others have already caught.

Also, since the Duelist Int mod to AC only goes away when you're flat-footed, wearing an armor, or using a shield, it should be added in to your regular AC if your not wearing armor or using a shield. If you are planning on switching back and forth, then mark it how you plan to have it for the grand melee. Obviously, your flat-footed AC should not have it added in.

[Darius]

Seeing as how I don't have my books with me at the moment I'll wait until tonight to double-check and make any changes necessary. For some reason I thought the Ioun stone granted an "insight" bonus. 'Course, I could be wrong.

[akiko]

Dex Ioun stone grants enhancement bonus. AC stone grants insight.

Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#iounStones)

[Lord Twig]

Looked over the wolf now, too. Everything seems perfect except the passage you just quoted from the SRD. It states that the wolf has a +1 check modifier for the trip - since your animal companion now has a +3 Str modifier, it should be changed to +3. ;)

Fixed.

Also looked at your skills:
For skill ranks I get 6x4 + 6x16 = 120 ranks.
I only counted 110 at first until I saw that those tumble skill ranks are cross-class. If you'd marked this, it would have been easier... (for me that is... ;) )
Jump you have a final modifier of +20?
I only get +16 (5r + 4 Str +5 competence from boots +2 tumble synergy).

In addition to the +5 competence bonus from the boots I also get +4 from the increased speed.

Your Jump check is modified by your speed. If your speed is 30 feet then no modifier based on speed applies to the check. If your speed is less than 30 feet, you take a –6 penalty for every 10 feet of speed less than 30 feet. If your speed is greater than 30 feet, you gain a +4 bonus for every 10 feet beyond 30 feet.

So that is something for others to keep in mind as well.

That's it. Didn't find much throughout all your characters... :) The only thing that would have helped in checking your characters would be a better format for all the information. It's hard to find the information one is looking for...

Sorry about the formating I have been intending to break it down to make it easier, I just haven't had a lot of time recently.

[Lord Twig]

I edited Yarden "The Rock" to break down his skills that are effected by armor check penalty.

[Tashalar]

Have edited both my characters according to the things that were pointed out. Have further edited a few things as noted which I saw myself. ;)

[Boomlaor]

Lune--If Moniker's signiture is being the cloud, and no one even knows he uses a spiked chain (as you asserted), then he shouldn't get the signiture discount on the spiked chain, imo.

[Darius]

A few things:
Bat Tattoo and Ioun Stone both grant an enhancement bonus and therefore do not stack. Why not get the gloves of Dex +2, another nifty item for the 6,000 that you then have left over and one more nice tattoo?


Swapped in gloves for stone; exchanged the bat tattoo for a lion tattoo.

Fly speed is correct but note that you have to use a standard action to activate the boots. My guess would be that you'd have to do it inside the arena?

Probably, but I am ok with that fact.

Since Foom Fang Fing (from now on called FFF) has a +4 Str bonus, it should be 20.
Fixed.

Exchange flurry of blows with greater flurry or add greater flurry to the list.
Now you are just nitpicking.

1st level is 4x4 +4 bonus for human = 20 I think. Final skill points should be 100.
You ae right. Dropped four ranks from Jump.

Pre-req for Tattooed Monk is 8 ranks. You'll need to transfer a few from other skills.
Swapped four ranks from listen.



You might ask BP if there is some item on your list for which you might get a signature cost reduction... although I'm rather pessimistic on that issue...


I'm not too worried about it.

[generaljimX]

I should have everything fixed. Please note anything that is still wrong. Thank you.

Oh, and when are fixes due by?

[Tashalar]

Now you are just nitpicking. Well, BP is very exact with his corrections and since I thought he might note this, too, I thought I might as well note it... :)

--------------------------------

Some thoughts on Elgin Falweath:

Hit Dice: 2d10+2 + 4d4+4 + 7d8+7 + 4d10+4 (101 HP) Final Hp should be 10 +6 +12 +35 +24 +17 = 104

1d10+13 Keen Adamant Halberd +3, 19-20x Crit range for a halberd is 20/x3.

Saves: Fort +10, Ref +9, Will +12 Saves should be:
Fort +13 (+3 Fighter +1 Sorcerer +5 Spellsword +1 Kensai +1 Con +2 Rat Familiar)
Ref +8 (+1 Sorcerer +2 Spellsword +1 Kensai +4 Dex)
Will +13 (+4 Sorcerer +5 Spellsword +4 Kensai)

Skills:
Number of skill points is: 98 (you have so far only spent 94)
Concentration cannot have 20 ranks, as it is not on the fighter's class list. You can spend 20 ranks to gain 19 total for a final mod of +20.
Profession is not on the fighter or kensai class list. You can spend 20 ranks for a +17 skill mod on Profession. You could also swap it out for Perform (Weapon Drill): +10 (20 cc ranks) +2 Cha + 7 BAB + 2 Combat Expertise +2 Weapon Focus +2 Two-Weapon Fighting = +25 bonus.
UMD should be marked as cross-class in some way (counted the 5 ranks as 10).

Languages: Common, Elven, Orc You could take one more language.

Signature: Elusive Target or Spinning Halberd
Only Spinning Halberd will get you the signature discount on the halberd imo.

Spells:
You could know one more 0th level spell.

Masterwork Mighty Composite Longbow (+7) (1,150) Cost would be (not 100% sure) 100 gp base +300 gp masterwork + 700gp (+7 mighty) = 1,100 gp.

Tanglefoot Bag x 2(10) Normal cost for one is 50 gp. Two of them being single-use items would cost 500 gp.
Caltropsx5 (5) Same as above => 25 gp for 5 (see BP's ruling for generaljimX's character).
Bit of web, small bottle of spirits, pouch of powdered iron, small platinum shield, bit of wool, ground mica, miniature cloak (all other spells) Anything with a noted cost counts as expensive and has to be bought paying 5x the cost as per the single-use items rule.

Current total costs are: 100819 gp (included the higher/lower costs as noted above, but excluding any possible costs for spell components - I also don't know how to calculate the weapon cost).

Rat Familiar:
Hit Dice: 1d4(50 hp) Hit Dice are 1/4 and hp should be 52 (because of the change in hp of character).
Speed:
Speed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm#speed): 15 ft. (3 squares), climb (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#climb) 15 ft., swim (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#swim) 15 ft. Full Attack: Bite +18 melee (1d4-3) Damage is 1d3-4.
Space is 2,5 feet.
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +4, Will +14 Reflex save should be +4 base +2 Dex = +6.
It's Charisma score should be 2.
Skills: Balance +10, Climb +10, Hide +11, Jump +4, Listen +1, Move Silently +8, Spot +3, Survival +1*
Feats: Weapon finesse, agile The rat familiar can also use the skills of the character (if it makes sense for a rat) => base ranks from character + ability modifier from the rat.
The second feat should be stealthy.

Okay... I think I got most of it - although I might be wrong on a few things and might have missed a few others!

I know many of the points might seem overly exact... :nervous:

[Tashalar]

Had a look at Moniker, too (not as thorough as for the others due to lack of time):

Skills: 128
Tumble: 25 = 20 ranks +2 synergy +3 dex
Jump: 18 = 10 ranks +2 synergy +6 str
Move Silently: 23 = 20 ranks +3 dex
Hide: 23 = 20 ranks +3 dex (+10 mountainous/underground)
Profession (gladiator): 20 = 20 ranks
Spot: 20 = 20 ranks
Listen: 20 = 20 ranks
Sense Motive: 8 = 8 ranks Your spent ranks add up to 138. Your max ranks should be 25 (grimlock levels) +7 (barbarian)+ 10 (fighter) +11 (rogue) +49 (assassin) +10 (ewm) = 112, not 128 or 138. I hope I calculated this correctly. ;)
Spot, Listen, Tumble, Move Silently and Hide as well as Profession are all cross-class skills for some classes. Their mod should be lower because of this.
+1 Deadly Precision Adamantine Spiked Chain (signature)
21325gp Boomlaor argued against this counting for the signature. I'm not sure either why this should get the reduction (Edit: the cost you have noted does not actually include a signature reduction, right?)
Red Dragonhide Mantle of Resistance +3 (fire resistance 5) (worn)
12800gp Did you get this item from somewhere? It looks like a custom one, but I don't know all the items there are, so bear with me if I am wrong! :)

total: 100000gp...on the dot. Absolutely. :nod:

Str 18 (22) +6
Dex 16 +3
Con 14 (16) +3
Int 16 (18) +4
Wis 10 -
Cha 6 -2 If I subtract the grimlock ability adjustments from your stats (disregarding items or leveling atm), I get:
Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 16
Wis: 12
Cha: 10
You have three ability points for leveling. If you spend two on Int and one on Str (doesn't really matter which), you have only spent 27 points!!
If you prefer to start out with Int 16 for the extra skill points (which my calculation is based on), then you'd have spent 29 points.

Go ahead and add a few here and there, but keep the skill points in mind when deciding on how to handle Intelligence.

Also keep in mind that you have a headband of intellect +4!! What you have noted would implicate a headband +2.
-----------------------
Okay, I think I am done with checking now... those others are too complex for me to check easily...
Well, except Benicus's character - but you'll have to make the changes we have asked for already first, Benicus! ;)

[Chris Chandler]

Some thoughts on Elgin Falweath:

Final Hp should be 10 +6 +12 +35 +24 +17 = 104

Crit range for a halberd is 20/x3.

Saves should be:
Fort +13 (+3 Fighter +1 Sorcerer +5 Spellsword +1 Kensai +1 Con +2 Rat Familiar)
Ref +8 (+1 Sorcerer +2 Spellsword +1 Kensai +4 Dex)
Will +13 (+4 Sorcerer +5 Spellsword +4 Kensai)

Skills:
Number of skill points is: 98 (you have so far only spent 94)
Concentration cannot have 20 ranks, as it is not on the fighter's class list. You can spend 20 ranks to gain 19 total for a final mod of +20.
Profession is not on the fighter or kensai class list. You can spend 20 ranks for a +17 skill mod on Profession. You could also swap it out for Perform (Weapon Drill): +10 (20 cc ranks) +2 Cha + 7 BAB + 2 Combat Expertise +2 Weapon Focus +2 Two-Weapon Fighting = +25 bonus.
UMD should be marked as cross-class in some way (counted the 5 ranks as 10).


Fixed or just plain changed per your suggestions.


Spells:
You could know one more 0th level spell.

W00t. Finally, I can pick up light. I'm sure to win now!



Cost would be (not 100% sure) 100 gp base +300 gp masterwork + 700gp (+7 mighty) = 1,100 gp.


I thought that the cost was 150 for some reason - fixed.


Normal cost for one is 50 gp. Two of them being single-use items would cost 500 gp.
Same as above => 25 gp for 5 (see BP's ruling for generaljimX's character).
Anything with a noted cost counts as expensive and has to be bought paying 5x the cost as per the single-use items rule.


Alchemical and other mundane items modified accordingly - ugh.



Rat Familiar:
Hit Dice are 1/4 and hp should be 52 (because of the change in hp of character).
Speed:
Damage is 1d3-4.
Space is 2,5 feet.
Reflex save should be +4 base +2 Dex = +6.
It's Charisma score should be 2.
The rat familiar can also use the skills of the character (if it makes sense for a rat) => base ranks from character + ability modifier from the rat.
The second feat should be stealthy.


I, er, wrote "rat", but meant "weasel". So there ya go. :roll:

Okay... I think I got most of it - although I might be wrong on a few things and might have missed a few others!

I know many of the points might seem overly exact... :nervous:

I reallly appreciate it. I usually depend on HeroForge for the crunchy, but even then the numbers don't jibe properly. It helps, and hey, by and large, made improvements to the character.

And I swear I put a mini picture in there Saturday, but it is no longer there - not even the code. I'll go dig for it again. *sigh*.

[Tashalar]

I, er, wrote "rat", but meant "weasel". So there ya go.
Lol - damn! That rat, er weasel was more than half the work!! LOL
No wonder....

I reallly appreciate it. I usually depend on HeroForge for the crunchy, but even then the numbers don't jibe properly. It helps, and hey, by and large, made improvements to the character.
Absolutely! Just think of the light spell! ;)

Rat.. weasel... well, I just had a good laugh about it... :)

[Black Plauge]

If you've made corrections that I have asked for, please replace the red flag at the top of the post with a lime one that notes you've made the fixes like Boomalor has done.

If your character has the "Character Approved" flag. You are no longer allowed to make any changes to the character.

[Tashalar]

Just saw that my two characters are 'approved'! Yay!! :D

[Black Plauge]

Dragonhide cloak is in Draconomicon.