[D&D] The most ridiculous weapon ever

[Linklegacy77]

I was reading through my new copy of the Monster Manual IV, and I came across a minotaur monster, with a new weapon description for players. It is beyond ridiculous. This exotic weapon is called the greathammer, and it deals 1d12 damage, weighs 30 lbs, gains a +2 on opposed attack rolls to sunder weapons or shields, and has a critical of: *drum roll* 19-20/x4. That's right, x4, with a 19-20 threat range. It is a two-hander.

The biggest problem is, it doesn't list a base price for this weapon. Anybody think they could help me out with one?

Edit: Also, I'd do well to specifiy what system I'm talking about in the thread title as described in the forum rules. Maybe I should read those.

[Doombot]

I'd say 500 GP and your soul. I would use that weapon, but if any of my players tried it, there'd be a sudden surge in the population of Paragon Half-fiend Great Red Wyrm Dragon Ascendants.

[treehouse]

Does WotC not even bother with game testers anymore? I want to know who in the design process missed their cue to say 'um, that's...that's crazy'.

[The Hive Custodian]

If these were the Wizards boards, someone would say that Wizards needs to get shot in the face with one.

However, these are not the Wizards boards, so I feel compelled to answer your question.

This weapon weighs 30 pounds, correct? This is three times as much as most comparable weapons. Therefore, what I would find reasonable (unlike the weapon itself) is for a masterwork version of the weapon to cost three times as much. After all, there is three times as much weapon to masterwork. Furthermore, making the weapon out of a special material, such as adamantine, should cost three times as much.

Of course, it would be a much better idea to simply nerf/ban the weapon outright.

[Linklegacy77]

Let me put it this way: What barbarian wouldn't spend a feat on this?!? And while the weapon is heavy, it's nothing a barbarian can't use with ease.

As I said, this weapon is ridiculous. So freaking ridiculous. While THC has a decent solution, it is still relying on house rules. I'd actually like an honest opinion of a price for the weapon itself.

[nightinverse]

650 GP, Custom Made.

[Benicus]

That is freaking ridiculos, and I shall take full advantage of it MUAHAHAHAH!

[The Hive Custodian]

You're not going to be able to balance it using a price increase; the critical range remains powerful throughout all levels while a flat price becomes less and less significant. Discounting the stats, I would put it at about 100 gp. With the stats, it would have to cost in the thousands for any semblance of balance by mid-level.

[akiko]

Just trust that it'll be errated. Its probably a typo and its a x2 weapon. It actually looks familiar to me but I can't place where.
*Runs off to look at Goliath greathammer (GG)*


EDIT: GG-1d12, x4 crit, 30 lb, 30gp, +2 sunder shield/weapon. In other words its a GG with a typo. Your hammer costs 30 or add the value of keen to it and there ya go.

[Benicus]

lol i re-read links original post and saw "Its a two hander," dang no frenzied berserker TWF focused dual wielding those babies. But still...gives me ideas on how to further my munchkination of my friends Shackled City campaign...MUAHAHAHA

[Linklegacy77]

I don't think it is a typo, it is specifically different from a Goliath Greathammer.

[nightinverse]

I said 650 to discourage, not to balance. Balancing that weapon would involve making each one soul-bound, or somesuch, and costing it for keen, as above.

Also, giving it a weakness... either for Sunder or Disarm.

[AbusePuppy]

Balance it? Ugh. Try the following:

1. Price? 300+ just for the basic weapon. Pull something out of your a** as to why it costs this much.

2. Availability: no. It's a minotaur weapon. Only they know the "secrets of its construction" or some weird BS like that. If you want one, you're gonna have to go talk to a bunch of minotaurs and hope they don't eat you. And obviously you can't get proficiency until you've used one.

3. Custom-made to the wielder. It's such a super-awesome weapon because each one is carefully balanced for its owner. Using someone else's gets you a -2 to-hit penalty and brings the crit multiplier down to x2.

Hrm. A thought: is this a Large size weapon or what? You mention it's a two-hander... is that a two-hander for a minotaur? 'Cause I'm pretty sure they're Large size creatures; scaling it down to a Medium creature's weapon would go a long way towards making it balanced. (d10 damage with 19-20/x4 critical? Hmmmm... that's pretty good, but only amazing if you build yourself to abuse the crits. Tag one of the other limitations on and you'd probably be safe letting them take it.)
__________________
"The Anti-Nuclear Defense League called me up the other day. They said 'We're against nuclear energy.' I said, 'S***, got none at my house. We got rid of it all as soon as I heard it was dangerous. Got rid of all that nuclear washing machine we had, the nuclear fan... All we got left is those nuclear Christmas lights. Awww, but the kids love 'em so. We're probably keep ahold of those and take the risk.'"

[Linklegacy77]

Nope, the stats listed here are two-hander for a medium. When the minotaur uses it, it bumps the damage up to 3d6, which is the next size up from 1d12. The sad thing is that somebody can put keen on it or make it a weapon of impact (basically keen for bludgeoning weapons) and wind up with a 17-20/x4 critical. If you get a psychic warrior/psychic weapon master with this...... *shudder*

[The Hive Custodian]

Or a paladin with Improved Critical and bless weapon.

[LynMars]

I didn't think bonuses like Improved Critical and Keen/Impact stacked anymore in 3.5, like enhancement bonuses.

[The Hive Custodian]

They don't. However:
This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon. In addition, all critical hit rolls against evil foes are automatically successful, so every threat is a critical hit. This last effect does not apply to any weapon that already has a magical effect related to critical hits, such as a keen weapon or a vorpal sword. Emphasis added.

[akiko]

I still think it will be errated. Regardless of it being a typo, loss of senses while writing, and/or no gametester it will be changed for the betterment of the game and banned from the Living Grayhawk stuff.

[The Hive Custodian]

Why bother waiting for an errata?

[akiko]

I'm not saying that I am waiting for one, just that I expect one. No one in my group is going to use it so I simply pay it no mind and move along. I won't be trying to cheese it, there is enough of that in other places of the SRD for me.

[Linklegacy77]

I just wanted to know what people think about it, and what they think a legitimate price would be, without houseruling the weapon stats away.

[AbusePuppy]

As said, I don't think there is any legitimate price. At low levels the weapon would be unobtainable if you set it to anything reasonable and at high levels it would be trivial for anythink less than 1000gp, which is pretty high without invoking magical creation or unusual materials. Frankly I would say leave the weapon out of your game completely unless you're a munchkin and just want to powergame as hard as you can.

...In which case the answer is obviously 1gp. No, I kid; something in the ~80gp range might convince a gullible DM to allow it. (Just make sure you get that SOB enchanted with Keen and some kind of Burst first chance you get.)
__________________
"HOW MUCH DO YOU LOVE STRAWBERRIES, T-REX?"
"I dunno. A lot? To- to fully understand my love of strawberries is to fully understand the unblinking eye of madness?"

[nightinverse]

And no, nobody in Lempfhyr can have it... except the Minotaur.

[hedgeknight]

Just toss it out, don't use it, don't even use the the friggin' MM IV.
Stick it to da man, people! Er, the Wizards! :D
-g-

[Linklegacy77]

Lol, just kill the minotaur and take it from him. And if it is too large to use, get a permanency enlargement, or get it enhanced with sizing.

[nightinverse]

I don't know, all the prior MMs have been worth the cost...

[treehouse]

I agree with coffeesucker. Don't endorse the MMIV - it's one of the first books in the 3.5 era that I don't think WotC at least TRIED to make good. Even Races of Destiny has the trappings of a good book, though it ultimately failed. MMIV is an utter crap shoot from start to finish.

While I wouldn't suggest that WotC only listens to our pocketbooks, they are our best voices.

[Linklegacy77]

Actually, I only have one or two beefs with the MMIV, and I think that overall it is pretty decent.

[treehouse]

I disagree, largely because of the large number of rehashed core monsters and the new format. If they want to have a book full of 'orcs with class levels', don't hijack the Monster Manual product line for it.

This may be personal taste, but I didn't like the new format because they didn't have writers who were talented enough to fill the extra space with useful or interesting information. Just a glance at the item at my local bookstore had me dozing.

[Linklegacy77]

I do agree with part of your statement, but fortunately the book isn't full of monsters with class levels, it has about 70 new monsters. (And while the new format doesn't have great writers, at least the stat block is easier to use)

[nightinverse]

Wait - only seventy new monsters? Forget that.

[Xaden]

I'm just curious. Is anyone else impressed by just how many posts this thread got? Cause I know I am.:fun:

[Linklegacy77]

Lol. Let me honestly ask this: is there anybody here who can actually give a good case as to how this weapon is not the most powerful of all the weapons so far?

[The Hive Custodian]

I've heard interesting things about the Spiked Chain, but that's about it. I'm not an expert on these new books, though, so I can't say.

[Xaden]

There's no doubt that the spike chain is a good weapon, but I would say not over powered and certainly not "decent threat range and kick@$$ critiacl mutiplier and damage" good! (I had a character in one of the games I was running with a weapon that was 19-20 range, x3 mutiplier and 1d4 damage and once it got the electric burst magical quality that weapon got really good. It was phun!)

[treehouse]

This weapon is not as balanced as the spiked chain (which is probably not balanced either).

The spiked chain gives up both good damage dice and a good critical range/multiplier, and instead gets versatility and reach. This weapon has no drawbacks for its class and user demographic.

It is the textbook definition of 'broken'.

[Linklegacy77]

Actually, I thought broken for this game meant that it makes the game unfun or unplayable. This is ridiculously powerful, but I don't think it breaks the game.

[treehouse]

To me, 'broken' means any item that is unfixable. This item can't really be balanced without being identical to some other item (in this case, the goliath greathammer). So there's no point in bringing it into play in the first place.

[hedgeknight]

Wait - only seventy new monsters? Forget that.

Just another reason NOT to buy it. I'm waiting for the, er, "other" version to be released. :nod: :evil:
-g-

[Noocytx]

I have to agree with treehouse, the item is broken.

In my terms, broken means unbalanced. Broken things can be fun and playable, but doesn't mean that they are comparable to others in term of balance. Clerics are seen broken because they are the most powerful class.

As for the weapon itself though, I really liked the concept of the Goliath Greathammer weapon it came out. A very powerful weapon with a huge crit multiplier. It followed the concept of exotic weapons of not trying to increase power output that much but still making it better than martial weapons. Now we have a new weapon (that's come out about a dozen books later), that is almost the exact same except better critical range. I don't know how you can say the greathammer is comparable to the goliath greathammer. The weapon is better overall by giving that much more of a chance of using the extreme critical that it has.

Just my 2 cents.

[Doomsmile]

Just a thought: maybe the weapon doesn't have a base price because the PCs aren't meant to be able to buy or sell greathammers like any ol' ordinary CUS (Cudgle of Unususal Size). In fact, based on the lack of a base price, I think they meant this weapon to only be available as a weapon that minotaur mysteriously happened to have and that you, the PC, can only get by looting the corpse of such a minotaur. In other words, they wanted to be prepared for the eventuality that there might, one day, be a fighter in the party who has taken the Monkey Grip feat and said:
"Hey, this minotaur's weapon's been kicking our sorry rears! I want to use it! I've got Monkey Grip- heck I'm already weilding a minotaur-sized greatsword! I'm going to learn to use this monster of a hammer if I have to spend another feat to use it!"

That's my take on the issue.

[Linklegacy77]

I don't think so DS, but that's mostly because of the way it is formatted. It lists the stats for a small and medium hammer, and the section it is in is called: "For the PC's" and a few other things about it.

[akiko]

Maybe its mystical and disappears when you destroy the 'taur.

[Linklegacy77]

Then why would it say: "For the PC's"?

[akiko]

Just because its a misprint goddamnit!

EDIT: That reads waaay harsher than I meant. I was kinda thinking it in a Cartman voice. Honestly I am adding nothing to this. Just throwing out random ideas, not really answering your question of cost because I just don't see one. I obviously need to look at the offending section too.

[nightinverse]

So, I was flicking through the MM IV at a store, and I have placed it damn low on my purchase list... but yes, reading that entry is a little maddening...

[Doomsmile]

Well... if I ever ran a game that icluded the minotaur greathammer, that's the way I'd run it. Probably the best way, too. Wizards is far from infallable, you know. (Take Darsteel, for example...)

[nightinverse]

I just remembered, I made a long set of images to really make text jump out...

The threat range of this weapon would be... http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/neddiedwarf/Game%20Use/19-20.jpghttp://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/neddiedwarf/Game%20Use/x4.jpg

Oh, I need to start using these again...