Duel Arcana Discussion

[Lord Twig]

Discussion, comments, corrections, and clarifications about all Duel Arcana matches can go here.

[Darius]

Seems like I've got a bit of a breather. That'll give me a chance to assess... err... enjoy the competition a bit before I have to actively compete.

[nightinverse]

It looks like it'll be fun, at least. I was going to enter as a Diviner of all things, but time wouldn't allow and 3.5 really broke specialization... as the different schools are of different in-game power. Anyway, I look forward to a good tourney to view from beyond.

[Flagg Thornington]

These duels look like they'll be pretty nasty. Sorry you didn't get ready for it. I was hoping the next tournament will be 20th level or so. (With a month to prep of course...)

[Lord Twig]

Remember, you will be assumed to have nothing in hand unless you tell me otherwise.

Just waiting for two more messages and I will post the results from the first two rounds.

[generaljimX]

I knew I was forgetting something. :oDOH!!!!! Rasca will have his crossbow in hand(loaded if possible) and use the second round to ready to counterspell.

[Lord Twig]

The first three duels are up!

I almost forgot the familiars. I have edited the posts and put them in. I have assumed that they are in the same space as their master and that they are sharing all spells.

[random_person_number_873]

OOHHH! I'm so excited.


that's all

[Lord Twig]

Because of area effect spells and other things I have decided that invisible characters can send me a private message for their actions. The characters' position will remain marked in the current round because their opponents know that they have not yet been able to move. In future rounds their markers will not show up on the map.

[random_person_number_873]

I'm assuming you've already read my actions then. hehe.

[Black Plauge]

So, any bets on me ending my match on this turn?

[Darken]

No, because it's not an attractive bet. TT only has 2.7% to 9% chance of survival, meaning betting that you would win will yield very low returns :)

[The Hive Custodian]

Let's see... if I understand this correctly, Mr. Ficklefarm essentially has to make two out of three DC 28 saving throws at a save bonus of +11 to surivive. This means he needs a 17 or better on each roll, which is a 20% chance of succeeding, or a 80% chance of failing.

The possible outcomes:

:), first two saving throws are made. Mr. Ficklefarm takes no damage. Probability of this is 0.2^2, or 4%.
:hurt:, one of the first two is failed, but the rest succeed; i.e., either fail-succeed-succeed or succeed-fail-succeed. Mr. Ficklefarm takes 3d6 points of damage. Probability of this is 2 * 0.8 * 0.2^2 = 6.4%.
:dead:, any other result. Mr. Ficklefarm is now deceased. This covers the remaining percentage, or 89.6%.

[Boomlaor]

Actually, it's Mr. Tshu, not Mr. Ficklefarm, but I'm equally unhappy about the likely result nonetheless. So I understand what's going on better, it's a DC 28 save. Now, that spell has 2 chances to save. If I make the will save we don't get to the fort save. If I fail the fort save I die. The thing to make me reroll a made save, how does it work?

scenario 1 make the will save, re-roll it, and proceed to the fort save and have the first roll stand.
scenario 2 fail the will save, proceed to the fort save, make it, have to reroll just the fort save?
scenario 3 fail the will save, proceed to fort save, make it, have to re-roll both?

Is the DC 28 for both saves? That spell sucks. DICE DON'T FAIL ME NOW!!!

[generaljimX]

My own question: Does Rasca know if Casan- whatever(can't remember exactly at the moment) is to the North East or North West? Or, is she straight north of him? If he doesn't know, its ok. He'll just have to deal with it.

[nightinverse]

This sounds truly horrid, this first action.

[Lord Twig]

My own question: Does Rasca know if Casan- whatever(can't remember exactly at the moment) is to the North East or North West? Or, is she straight north of him? If he doesn't know, its ok. He'll just have to deal with it.

You know the general direction of Casandrella. That general direction is North. Sorry I can't be more specific. :)

[The Hive Custodian]

Actually, it's Mr. Tshu, not Mr. Ficklefarm, but I'm equally unhappy about the likely result nonetheless.

Bleg! That'll teach me to read more carefully. In any case, this changes the probabilities to the following:

:) = 0.3^2 = 9%.
:hurt: = 0.3 * 0.7 * 0.25 + 0.7 * 0.25^2 = 9.625%.
:dead: = 81.375%.This is based on the assumption that one made save is re-rolled during the whole spell.

[generaljimX]

Ok. How about general distance away? I just want within,like, 10 feet, if you can give it to me at all. Wait, nevermind.

[Lord Twig]

Phantasmal Killer is a pretty harsh spell, but it allows two chances to save and is not a death effect, which is why it is only 4th level instead of 6th or higher like most save or die spells.

BP has really pumped up his save DCs and the fickle finger of fate ability makes the whole combination nasty. I think it is worth noting that if he had prepared to counterspell his chances of living would have significantly improved.

Well, I am off to roll the dice and see what happens.

[Black Plauge]

The possible out comes are as follows:

Fail the Will Save, Fail the Fort Save: Die
Fail the Will Save, Pass the Fort Save, be forced to reroll it, Fail the Fort Save: Die
Fail the Will Save, Pass the Fort Save, be forced to reroll it, Pass the Fort Save: Live
Pass the Will Save, be forced to reroll it, Fail the Will Save, Pass the Fort Save: Live
Pass the Will Save, be forced to reroll it, Fail the Will Save, Fail the Fort Save: Die
Pass the Will Save, be forced to reroll it, Pass the Will Save: Live

The odds are thus not quite as bad as they first seem. The fact that you get two saves to negate the spell (only one of which need succeed) is how phantasmal killer gets away with being a fourth level save or die spell.

Of course, when you have every Spell DC boost possible (yes the DC 28 applies to both saves)...

Well, let's just say that I peg Tsao Tshu's chance of survival at 18.625%.

Look on the bright side though, if you make it, I can't pull this stunt again in this match.

[generaljimX]

Was just gonna edit my last post, but LT has already posted sooo.....

Ok. Do I know if she is near, far, or in between? Or, does he know what direction she moved in?

I've got a million ideas running through my head right now, and I can't pick one. I only have a few feasable choices, but that doesn't matter. I'm learning from this, and, if Rasca lives, I can enter the next one with him.

[Black Plauge]

Hmm... Thank you for pointing out my tactical flaw Lord Twig. I'll have to make some minor adjustments fix that in later rounds.:evil:

[Lord Twig]

Hmm... Thank you for pointing out my tactical flaw Lord Twig. I'll have to make some minor adjustments fix that in later rounds.:evil:

I kinda figured that that would be rather obvious since everyone else tried to counterspell.

I am also a bit surprised that more people didn't have see invisible cast ahead of time, especially considering the number of people that went invisible in the first round.

Anyway, the results are up and Tsao Tshu has paid the ultimate price. :depry: Or it would be if he wasn't just going to be raised again. :)

The first rounds of any contest like this quickly points out what works and what doesn't. If you compare the first rounds of the gladiator matches to the later rounds you will see that the tactics are much more polished.

[Boomlaor]

Ok, so can somone explain to this dnd newbie how the negative level from being raised works? Tsao Tshu only had just enough wizard levels to cast 4th lvl spells (monk levels were 1 and 2). Is he disqualified from the rest of the tournament now?

[Lord Twig]

A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained.

–1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
–1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
–5 hit points.
–1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).

If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.

So you would have a caster level of 6 and would lose your only 4th level spell slot. However, I will allow you to continue since your abilities are only tested to gain entry to the Duel Arcana. Now that you are in, you are in.

[Flagg Thornington]

LT, Tarnoch would not have attempted to counter the wall spell. In fact it suits me just fine to be there.
Check out ready action on p.160, the person attempting to counter a spell readies action and attempts a spellcraft check and then decides whether he/she wants to counter it. Tarnoch would have save the dispel magic for a better purpose.

[generaljimX]

Flagg, Wrong character. Thought I'd point that out. NVM, you already caught that.

LORD TWIG: Does Rasca recognize what summon Casandrella is casting?

[Flagg Thornington]

Plague good choice with the deadly combo.

[Lord Twig]

Flagg: Since the outcome has already been determined I do not want to go back and change things. In the future I will give all counterspellers the chance to decline a counterspell.

generaljimX: I have added the spellcraft check to all duels. Casandrella is casting summon undead II.

[generaljimX]

OK. My resources are limited, so, uh, could you, just possibly give me a list(if only short) of different things that could be summoned with said spell?

[Lord Twig]

I understand limited resources. That is why people are restricted to the sources they are. :)

Quick list for Summon Undead:
2nd level: Owlbear skeleton, bugbear zombie.
1st level: Human warrior skeleton, kobold zombie.

Summon Undead allows you to summon one creature of the level of the spell or two from one level lower or four from two levels lower.

[Lord Twig]

Please note! Area spells are cast at the corner of a square. When you declare a square as a target, include which corner of the square you are targeting. So if you wanted to cast a spell at square E5 you would cast at E5 NW, NE, SW or SE.


Area: Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.

Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don’t control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection. You can count diagonally across a square, but remember that every second diagonal counts as 2 squares of distance. If the far edge of a square is within the spell’s area, anything within that square is within the spell’s area. If the spell’s area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell.

[Canadian]

Nice move on the phantasmal killer.

Just about any illusion spell can be outright nasty depending on how you manage it. Most classes have Will has their weakest saving throw. Take a gnome to get the +1dc, spell/greater focus for +2, int 20, headband of intellect +4. This alone gives you +10 on all illusion spells you cast.

Then cast a level 4 spell such as phantasmal killer and heighten it a few levels. You're now at 10 + 10 + 6ish for the spell DC. Add in the Spin from the Fatespinner class and you could essentailly go up to DC31.

It's even more fun when you use hallucinary terrain or other illusion spells and the other people believe what they see. If you are creative enough you can do some really horrible things.

[Lord Twig]

I am waiting for some clarifications on TarNoch's actions in match 2. Once I have that I will update that match as well.

[Lord Twig]

Regarding Snap's darkness.

Area spells are supposed to be targeted on a corner of a square so that you can figure the correct radius. However, darkness is targeted on an object or person and then emanates from there. Because Snap is a 5' cube, I have the darkness emanating 20' out from his square, which effectively gives him a 25' radius. I am now thinking that I should have him specify a corner of his square and I will have the darkness spread out from there.

What do you guys think?

[Chris Chandler]

I'd just pick a corner and adjust from there. The 5' stretch is not an overpowering issue, though, but to keep consistency, it'd be better to assign a square.

[Black Plauge]

Actually, centering it on the square gives him a 22.5' radius, not a 25' radius.

If you're worried about consistency then make him pick a corner. Personally, however, I don't think it matters much and indeed, forcing him to pick a corner actually reduces the power of the spell because it means that there is a direction from which people can approach him and only have to pass through 15' of the spell's effect rather then 20'.

[Chris Chandler]

I noted that instance with the "centering" of the stinking cloud - Snap was closer to getting out moving the other direction, based on the corner assignation.

[generaljimX]

I don't if Summon Undead II is like other summons, but if it is, the placement of the undead is not legal. Both summon monster and summon nature's ally require the creatures be within 30 feet of at least one other creature being summoned. Also, conjure ice beast(Frostburn) is the same way.

Hmmmmmm.....Wonder if I caught her in the cloud.........if I did....she must have saved.....

[Lord Twig]

I don't if Summon Undead II is like other summons, but if it is, the placement of the undead is not legal. Both summon monster and summon nature's ally require the creatures be within 30 feet of at least one other creature being summoned. Also, conjure ice beast(Frostburn) is the same way.

Hmmmmmm.....Wonder if I caught her in the cloud.........if I did....she must have saved.....

You are absolutely right. I forgot that. Both skeletons are within her close range of 45', but they are not within 30' of each other.

I am inclined to just leave them where they are for now. Moving them would probably just put the second one closer to Gimbal anyway.

[Lord Twig]

Actually, centering it on the square gives him a 22.5' radius, not a 25' radius.

If you're worried about consistency then make him pick a corner. Personally, however, I don't think it matters much and indeed, forcing him to pick a corner actually reduces the power of the spell because it means that there is a direction from which people can approach him and only have to pass through 15' of the spell's effect rather then 20'.

Hmmm... Good point. Now I am thinking that maybe I should stick with my original ruling. This would also affect TarNoch's lesser globe of invulnerability. Yeah, I think I will leave it the way it is.

[Flagg Thornington]

Updated Tarnoch's last post.

I forgot about the 30' limit on the summoning. I'm posting her next action under the assumsption that Lord Twif is leaving them put.

[treehouse]

Are spectators allowed to post here?

This is a pretty cool tournament, Twig. Sorry I wasn't able to get a submission in - freaking college trying to suck up all of my free time...

[Darken]

Same here, I didn't even have time to dig out my Red Wizard to the original gladitor tourny that was voted out because he can pump out 97 damage a turn on average with no save.

[Lord Twig]

All posters are welcome. :)

Match 2 and 3 have been updated. Waiting for a reply from Flagg before updating match 1.

[Darius]

Makes me start to wonder what my chances are going forward.

What is the best way to get you a pic for Darek?

[Lord Twig]

You have an advantage though in that you can see the other duelist's strategies before you have to face them.

I have been pulling images from WotC's site here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/ag

It looks like most of the duelists are finding a miniature picture from here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mix/gallery

[Lord Twig]

Reminder!

Although the posts list that you have 24 hours to reply, weekends don't count. You will not lose your turn if you wait till Monday. You are, of course, free to post anyway and if I have time I will update the match. So be sure to check back on Monday! It may be your turn!

[Flagg Thornington]

LT, Lesser Globe of invulnerability is immoble. Looks like it moved on the last map.

[Lord Twig]

Yep, I read that then promptly forgot. It has been fixed. Thanks!

[nightinverse]

It reminds me of a bouncing magic missile error I encountered in a NwN game...

[Lord Twig]

Speaking of lesser globe of invulnerability, the way I read it TarNoch can not cast spells inside the globe either. He can cast spell out of it, but not inside it. For that reason I have adjusted his movement as the easiest way to resolve the issue.

If someone knows of a rule somewhere that states that he can cast inside the globe, please let me know and I will change the map back.

Thanks!

[Flagg Thornington]

It seems that spell rules leave a lot of grey areas quite often. This duel has been sniffing out poorly clarified rules. DM discretion solves all.

[The Hive Custodian]

An immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere surrounds you and excludes all spell effects of 3rd level or lower. The area or effect of any such spells does not include the area of the lesser globe of invulnerability. Such spells fail to affect any target located within the globe. Excluded effects include spell-like abilities and spells or spell-like effects from items. However, any type of spell can be cast through or out of the magical globe. Spells of 4th level and higher are not affected by the globe, nor are spells already in effect when the globe is cast. The globe can be brought down by a targeted dispel magic spell, but not by an area dispel magic. You can leave and return to the globe without penalty.
Note that spell effects are not disrupted unless their effects enter the globe, and even then they are merely suppressed, not dispelled.
If a given spell has more than one level depending on which character class is casting it, use the level appropriate to the caster to determine whether lesser globe of invulnerability stops it.
The way I interpret this is that the globe merely suppresses spell effects brought into or cast into the globe. It does not counter spells, nor does it dispel them. It simply excludes their effects. As such, TarNoch can cast nightshield inside the globe--it simply won't affect him as long as he stays within the globe.

Just my view.

[Boomlaor]

Could we have a thread for in-character roleplaying outside the duels (ala Gladiator Stables)?

[Lord Twig]

Could we have a thread for in-character roleplaying outside the duels (ala Gladiator Stables)?

Done.

[generaljimX]

The concentration check for Rasca to keep his spell should have been against DC 28, not DC 31. Either way, though, he would have lost his spell.

Also, for future referance, how would an energy substituted(electricity) ice storm work. It would no longer be hail, so it wouldn't deal bludgeoning damage. Does that mean that the full 5d6 would be electricity damage?

[The Hive Custodian]

You choose one type of energy: acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. When employing a spell with the acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic designator, you can modify the spell to use your chosen type of energy instead.
It says "energy", not "damage". Therefore, only the energy portion is replaced.

Balls of solid ball lightning drop from the sky. Or something.

That's my interpretation, anyway.

[generaljimX]

You are right about that. Hmmm. I guess its just the flavor of the spell that gets affected. You know, what it looks like in-game.

[Lord Twig]

The concentration check for Rasca to keep his spell should have been against DC 28, not DC 31. Either way, though, he would have lost his spell.

CONCENTRATION (CON)
Check: You must make a Concentration check whenever you might potentially be distracted (by taking damage, by harsh weather, and so on) while engaged in some action that requires your full attention. Such actions include casting a spell, concentrating on an active spell, directing a spell, using a spell-like ability, or using a skill that would provoke an attack of opportunity. In general, if an action wouldn’t normally provoke an attack of opportunity, you need not make a Concentration check to avoid being distracted.

If the Concentration check succeeds, you may continue with the action as normal. If the check fails, the action automatically fails and is wasted. If you were in the process of casting a spell, the spell is lost. If you were concentrating on an active spell, the spell ends as if you had ceased concentrating on it. If you were directing a spell, the direction fails but the spell remains active. If you were using a spell-like ability, that use of the ability is lost. A skill use also fails, and in some cases a failed skill check may have other ramifications as well.

The table below summarizes various types of distractions that cause you to make a Concentration check. If the distraction occurs while you are trying to cast a spell, you must add the level of the spell you are trying to cast to the appropriate Concentration DC. If more than one type of distraction is present, make a check for each one; any failed Concentration check indicates that the task is not completed.

So it was 10+18 damage +3 for a third level spell = 31.

Also, for future referance, how would an energy substituted(electricity) ice storm work. It would no longer be hail, so it wouldn't deal bludgeoning damage. Does that mean that the full 5d6 would be electricity damage?

The Hive Custodian has it right, only the energy portion of the spell would be changed to electricity, the impact damage would remain impact.

[generaljimX]

Ah, ok. I missed that part.

So, how would you describe an electric ice storm?

[Flagg Thornington]

Seems pretty silly, electricity has no mass so how would it deal bludgeoning damage...
Edit: The duration of the ice storm is one full round, will the storm affect spellcasting and if so can I delay untill when the spell ends just before his turn?

[Darken]

This might have been a bit late as I don't check this forum as often (since I am not a participant this time), but for Globe of Invulnerability, or the Lesser Glove, or AMF, none of them prevent spellcasting at all. They surpress corresponding magic inside, and do nothing to prevent casting.

Do note that, however, you will not have LOE for spellcasting while inside the globe to anywhere but yourself. Thus, you can cast spells that target only yourself, but nothing else. Duration still count against the spell's normal duration, of course. For example, you have a GoI on you, you can cast Mage Armor or Shield on yourself no problem (less than level 3, but LOE exist), you can also cast Ice Storm from inside to outside and from outside to inside (higher than level 3), but not Lightning Bolt or Hold Person (no LOE, and less than level 3).

[Lord Twig]

Flagg: I would picture and ice storm with energy substitution: electricity as a lightning storm. It would still do bludgeoning damage, because that's how the rules would work. The bolts would hit with a physical force in addition to the electrical damage. It's magic, don't sweat it too much. ;)

Since the storm lasts for 1 round I would rule that you would have to make a concentration check as if you were taking continuous damage. So the DC would be 10+ 4 (half of the last damage you took) + spell level. The spell will end on Rasca's turn. So you could prepare an action with the trigger "as soon as the ice storm ends" and you would go just before Rasca did.

Darken: That sounds like a pretty reasonable interpretation. I will use that from now on.

[Lord Twig]

Chris: In match 3, did you mean 15' diameter?

Also, dismissing a spell is a standard action, so the black pudding will have to hang around for a while.

[Lord Twig]

Match 2: Flagg, which corner of F7 are you targeting the fireball at?

[Flagg Thornington]

bottom right, edited to reflect.

[Boomlaor]

How does the cast time of a full round casting time spell get measured? Can you take a move action, and then start casting it, and it will complete the next round at the time your move action would be over (i.e. you don't get a move action the next round) or is it just you can do nothing but cast the full round cast time spell?

edit: found my own answer
A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions (see below).

[The Hive Custodian]

Actually, that's only half the answer:

Start/Complete Full-Round Action
The “start full-round action” standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can’t use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.

[Lord Twig]

Awaiting some responses before I update the remaining two duels.

[generaljimX]

LT: IIRC, you can only be reserected once during the entire tournament. Does what just happend to Rasca count? I'd think not, especially if there was no experience penalty for either side. Also, can we scribe scrolls(or use any other creation feat) between rounds?

[Lord Twig]

Rasca did not die. The close wounds spell actually prevents the damage. So you have a loss, but no level loss (or negative level in this case).

You will not have 8 uninterrupted hours to create an item, so no scribing or creating of items during the duels. I will allow people to purchase components or focuses for spells that they already know.

[generaljimX]

Ok then. I now have a question about stoneskin. Does it reduce/protect against energy damage? I'm not quite sure, but I think it does.

[The Hive Custodian]

Negative.

The subject gains damage reduction 10/adamantine.

The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.

[generaljimX]

Well, stoneskin isn't very effective in this kind of setting then. Ah, at least I didn't figure out the hard way.

[Chris Chandler]

Um - Should I go ahead and reply to Snap's action? I've been waiting for the summary post before I made my own post. I mean, I can't see the match continuing in any meaningful way, but he didn't concede.

[random_person_number_873]

If it's not to opposed, I'm actually gonna edit my actions right now. I'll change them back if you say its too late.

[Black Plauge]

Stoneskin is useful if your opponent is using summoned monsters or physically attacks himself. If all he's using is spells, then no, its not very useful in this setting.

[Lord Twig]

Work has been kinda crazy lately, but we just have one match to go in the first round and I should be able to stay on top of the updates for a while. It has been an interesting duel so far.

[generaljimX]

In the first round of combat, can you cast a spell such as obscuring mist? Every part of the spell refers to the caster, and its center for the radius is you.

Also, can spells, specifically rays and straight-line effects, be cast through a wind wall? For this one, I think it depends on the effect trying to be cast and the shape of the wind wall.

[Lord Twig]

New idea for readied actions.

Instead of trying to figure out the player's intent every time a readied action is triggered, I will give the person with the readied action time to post a response before the results of the turn are completed.

For example, after the second round of a duel both character's will most likely be ready to counterspell. The person who wins initiative will go first and post what they want to cast. Then his opponent will post immediately after him saying whether or not he actually wants to counterspell the spell or not. You will have 24 hours from the time your opponent posted to post your response.

While this may sound like it would take longer, in practice it will probably be about the same. I am already sending messages to people when I am not sure if they would want to use their prepared action or not. And a few times I have assumed one thing and then found out that the player wanted the opposite.

So this should make everything easier and also clearer to the audience since the response will be posted in the duel thread.

[Lord Twig]

In the first round of combat, can you cast a spell such as obscuring mist? Every part of the spell refers to the caster, and its center for the radius is you.

Also, can spells, specifically rays and straight-line effects, be cast through a wind wall? For this one, I think it depends on the effect trying to be cast and the shape of the wind wall.

You could cast obscuring mist. It would be the same as the lesser globe of invulnerability.

Spells are not effected by wind wall, only arrows, bolts and normal ranged weapons.

[Boomlaor]

man, 13 dmg from 5d8, that just sucks! I was hoping to finish him off that round. Oh well, this has been a fun fight!

[Lord Twig]

man, 13 dmg from 5d8, that just sucks! I was hoping to finish him off that round. Oh well, this has been a fun fight!
Something to plan for in future duels is my sucky dice rolls. It's a curse that all of my characters have to live with. ;)

At least I didn't roll a 1 for your to-hit roll. :)

[Lord Twig]

That's if for the first round. A lot of surprises for me.

Now that we have one round under our belts are there any comments or suggestions?

I will post the next match ups as soon as I can. If not today, then tomorrow for sure.

[Boomlaor]

I like the new idea for readied actions, I think it'll cause less confusion. I think it also might be good to have a round other than just the first round in which duelists can not directly harm their opponent (like round 5 or so maybe?). This could be used to drink healing potions, cast defensive spells, maybe even cast walls/summon spells which do not directly effect the opponent, or give it the same limitations as the first round.

Will there be any new features to the arena for future rounds (pools of lava, walls, other fun things like that) or will we be sticking with the stock dirt and grass?

[Darius]

I'd like to second Boomalor's suggestion of a reset round. Maybe make it the 5th, 10th, and 15th rounds... if it makes it that far. Might also give more of a reason to ready counterspells.

[Chris Chandler]

That's an interesting proposition... A reset round to take a breather... I'd go along with that, too.

[Boomlaor]

Do you guys think spells which do not target the caster or his opponent (i.e. summoning spells or walls cast in a way so as not to damage the opponent on that round) should be allowed on these reset rounds or keep it to the same rules as the first round?

[Darius]

I'd keep it as the same rules as first round.

[generaljimX]

Hmmm.......I don't know.....I kinda lean toward allow summoning and walls during this round, but that's because I'm playing a summoner(primarily). It's really up to Lord Twig if these reset rounds even get implimented, and how it will work.

[Lord Twig]

I like the idea in general, but I don't want to change rules in the middle of a contest. People have created characters around the rules that I have put in place. To change them now would be unfair.

Maybe for Duel Arcana II. I was thinking of going up to 12th level for the next one. :)

[Black Plauge]

Such reset rounds are already covered in the suggested rules in CA. They follow the same rules as the first round and are always followed by a round where the competitors get to ready an action to counter spell (also just like the first round).

Personally I don't have a preference about this issue, but that's mostly because I don't intend to ever let one of my matches go that long.;)

[Flagg Thornington]

Duel Arcana II is gonna rock, Access to level7 spells.

I agree with LT on not changing the rules midway through the tourney.

[Lord Twig]

The new matches are up!

TarNoch will be getting a bye this time.

[Boomlaor]

If we have money left over, can we purchase new expendibles (scrolls, etc)? staying within the 5000gp limit on expendibles, of course.

[Lord Twig]

No, you register your equipment when you check in for the duel and you have to fight with what you have.

That said, I will allow for buying expensive material components for spells that you already know unless there is an objection.

We can always revisit this rule for future matches, but since I did not specify that it would be allowed from the beginning I don't want to change it now.

[Lord Twig]

Feel free to post you character's entrance in your duel thread.

Not required, but it makes things more interesting to read. :)

[generaljimX]

Well, I would, but I don't want to give away my first action.........or do I.......OK. I don't care. Going to post now.

[Lord Twig]

It's cool if you want to include your first moves in your post, or you could just make your entrance and end with "gets ready to cast his first spell". You don't actually have to say what it is.

[Lord Twig]

Three of the duels are updated. Waiting on Random to send Snap's actions and spell list.

Normally I would just skip his turn and have him ready a counterspell, but the first round is especially important and I don't know what spells he has prepared. Hopefully I hear something soon!

[Boomlaor]

Your dice suck Lord Twig. :P I put a lot of resources into making sure Tsao Tshu would win initiative (and he's had a large advantage in it against both opponents) because he really needed to win initiative to win, and he's lost both times, and Frizznik, who I couldn't care less about initiative with has won both times! shit! I say, shit!

Boomlaor, who in spite of some bad luck is having a great time in the tourney.

[generaljimX]

I assume, as well as you did, that it was ok for you post. The only problem would be if I choose to change my action before LT sees it. I'm not, but that would be the main reason not to post early again in the future.

[Lord Twig]

Sorry about the rolls, but the only way I can not feel guilty about match results is if I strictly follow the dice rolls. Should still be a good match.

As for the early post, it is probably okay this time, but it would be better to wait in the future. Except of course for the readied actions, as we have already discussed. So Flagg can go ahead and post if Casandrella is going to counter the glitterdust or not and if so which spell she is using to counter with, without waiting for me to update the duel.

Also, I have fixed the errors that were pointed out in the duels.

[Darius]

Lord Twig- how long are you givinging random_person_837 to post? I realize the importance of that first post but it looks like he hasn't been on the site since April 10th.

I'm a little dissappointed by that- I was lookin forward to finally getting to participate only to discover my opponent was a no show. I hope everything is all right with him.

[Boomlaor]

I can actually speak to that, he's the DM in a game I'm in, he's out of town since Wednesday, I think he said he'd be back on monday.

[Darius]

Ah. Makes sense then. Here I thiought he was just running complex calculations to determine the best way to beat me.

[generaljimX]

I just found a flaw in Boom's proposed action. He would have to A) Here me and B) Know I moved. B in and of itself isn't a good enough reason to know where Rasca is. Now, if Tsao is just running into the mist and happens to see me, that's a different story. As is, though, I don't really see a IG reason for Tsao to target that specific area.

[Boomlaor]

My thinking on it was this:

He knows that fire will burn off fog.
I assumed that he would identify the spell as a summoning spell, and if not that the announcers would have mentioned a summoning spell (another reason not to post before Lord Twig), which limit the caster's movement.
He was trying to burn fog up to the edge of the arena, in an area where Rasca was likely to be, so with the 15' range on the spell he had to run up to c7. I then flipped a coin to see which side to center the spell on.

I tried not to metagame it, but I obviously did know where Rasca was from ooc knowledge. If you guys think this was too much of a stretch, I'll figure out another action for him to take. I'd welcome anyone's input on this.

Boomlaor

[Lord Twig]

I have a few things to comment on here, so I will try to break them up.

Flagg: In match 3, you can not change your action from trying counterspell to trying to disrupt a spell.

Darius: I was only going to give him another 24 hours, but since we now know that he will be back on Monday I am willing to wait until then if you have no objection.

I had not come up with a contingency for missing the first round, but I was thinking of just using his spells from the previous duel and having him sit there and counterspell. It was either that or a forfeit.

Regarding Tsao Tshu's action. I am willing to let it stand. He basically ran in a strait line until he was close to the opposite edge of the ring and then cast Burning Hands to clear the fog directly in front of him. According to the area charts on page 307 of the DMG he does not even need to declare a corner. It will go out 5' in front of him, then spread to 15' wide and continue out to 15'. Actually it would have been even more effective if he had stopped 5' earlier than he did.

[Boomlaor]

Wow, I should really read that DMG thing one of these days! I googled to find a diagram of how it would work, and I found some metal templates that can be used on a battlemap (very cool), but all I could find was one for the 30' or 60' cones, so I assumed it worked the same as those.

[Darius]

I won't object to it. Gives me added incentive to beat him quicker. ;)

[Flagg Thornington]

LT I edited my last post. Sorry for the wait. Cheers!

[Darius]

LT- did you get the character image I had sent you via email?

[generaljimX]

With the reasoning that Boom gave, its ok. I got off my spell anyways, so it doesn't really matter. I do have a question for Lord Twig, though: Is the Psuedo. Deinonychus in its alternate, grotesque form? Also, does it take up a 10' square or a 10' x 5' area like a horse? I would say the latter because it only has 5' reach, just like the horse. Neither of these questions really affects my action, just the placement of my "friend", and how Tsao will react to it.

Edit: Is Tsao in the fog still?

Re-edit: If I 5' step to the left, do I have to squeeze?
Re-re-edit: By looking at my last duel, and seeing that one of Casandrella's skeletons had to squeeze in the same kind of square, my last question is answered for me.

[Boomlaor]

If it's a large creature it takes up a 10 x 10 square, in 3.5 there is no such thing as a 10 x 5 creature. However, according to the SRD a deinonychus is a medium creature with space/reach of 5'/5', and I don't believe that the pseudonatural template changes that. Oh, and yes, Tsao Tshu is still in fog, though he's at the edge of it. I believe that he has concealment (20% miss chance) as a result.

[generaljimX]

I'll have to check the errata for what the actual size for it is. Loses yet kinda gains effectiveness by becoming medium. Thanks for clearing up the space thing. Now, off to find errata....

[Lord Twig]

Darius: I do not recall seeing your character image. Please send it to me again.

GeneraljimX: The way I read it pseudonatural creatures show up in their creature form and have to spend an action to turn into their true forms. The Deinonychus is a medium creature, so it just fills one square.

Tsao is in the fog so there is a 20% miss chance to hit him.

I am working on the duels now and will get them up as soon as I can.

[generaljimX]

Editted to show that it was medium last night. Also, I prefer the ruling that the creature arrives in a random state. That is the way Andorax ruled it for psuedonatural creatures in the Conjurer's Chess tournaments. This ruling makes the most sense because the creature is not forwarned of itself being summoned.

[Darius]

Let's try that...

[Lord Twig]

Editted to show that it was medium last night. Also, I prefer the ruling that the creature arrives in a random state. That is the way Andorax ruled it for psuedonatural creatures in the Conjurer's Chess tournaments. This ruling makes the most sense because the creature is not forwarned of itself being summoned.

I read through the template again and I will agree. The description does mention that they are 'often' summoned in the standard form, but that sometimes they are not. So I will give it a 50/50 chance.

Darius, I will update the match to add Darek's new figure.

[Black Plauge]

I'm noting that a couple of the casters have a Resist Energy spell noted as being pre-cast, but the summary doesn't list the energy type of that resitance. Is this to prevent meta-gaming? Resist Energy requires that you choose the type of resistance when you cast, you know.

[Darius]

Awesome. I guess now I just wait and see how well prepared Snap was to deal with yet another invisible opponent.

[Lord Twig]

I'm noting that a couple of the casters have a Resist Energy spell noted as being pre-cast, but the summary doesn't list the energy type of that resitance. Is this to prevent meta-gaming? Resist Energy requires that you choose the type of resistance when you cast, you know.

Yes, the type of energy is already predetermined. Not sure if we really need to worry about meta-gaming, but I thought it would be cool to leave it as a surprise. I can go ahead and show the type of energy if people would prefer.

[generaljimX]

Personally, I would rather it be a surprise. In game, it would be a surprise anyway. I think it makes it better for the spectators if they don't know, either. Brings suspense into it.....

[Black Plauge]

I don't care either way, just wanted to make sure that it was predetermined.

Makes my character's contingent energy resistance worthless if it wasn't.

Also, while it didn't make a difference in the game play, a note for the commentator: Spellcraft identifies a spell being cast, but not who the spell is targeted at (or any other parameters of the spell).

[Lord Twig]

Also, while it didn't make a difference in the game play, a note for the commentator: Spellcraft identifies a spell being cast, but not who the spell is targeted at (or any other parameters of the spell).

I used a little creative license there since I didn't figure it would matter game-wise. But I guess it could effect how the other duelist respond to Loopy. I will edit the response.

[Flagg Thornington]

Wizards/Sorcerors are linked to their familiar. You could infer, by reading the sections on how to describe a spell effect to someone that just suceeded at the save and the rules concerning the telepathic link under the familiar rules,
that the spellcaster would know when the familiar was the target of the spell.

Just a thought.

[Boomlaor]

One issue with the rules, it essentially gives whoever loses initiative the chance to act twice in the third round. Since preparing to counterspell (or total defense) are the only allowable actions in the second round, whoever wins initiative is required to be useless in that round while the person who loses it can still counterspell the faster person's third round spell and cast one of their own in the third round. I'm not sure how to fix this, (and really, even Tsao Tshu, who has lost initiative both times, hasn't found a way to take advantage of it, but man, did cassandarella sure take advantage of it this time. Ouch.)

[generaljimX]

You do have a point. I think, though, that whoever wins can still ready to counterspell if they still have enough action time left.

I would LIKE to go ahead and post my action, but I know better than that. I kinda know what I'm going to do, but whether or not the PND gets an AoO or whether that hits may effect what I cast. Anyway, this is proving more interesting than my first duel. I will feel truly terrible if I knock Tsao out of the tourny, but shit happens, you know? Plus, if I lose, I'm out.

[Lord Twig]

The second round is to counter the "whoever goes first wins" situation that is the usual case with wizards.

Countering with a Dispel Magic has a 50% chance of succeeding against an opponent of an equal level. So whoever goes first has a 50% chance of getting a spell off before their opponent can do anything. Of course if their opponent successfully counters the spell, the opponent has a 100% chance of getting a spell off since they can not be counterspelled in return.

Of course there are ways of getting a counterspell even without a readied action. And there are spells to cast up to help save you from a spell that gets through. That is the whole point of the Spell Duel of course.

[Black Plauge]

Wizards/Sorcerors are linked to their familiar. You could infer, by reading the sections on how to describe a spell effect to someone that just suceeded at the save and the rules concerning the telepathic link under the familiar rules,
that the spellcaster would know when the familiar was the target of the spell.

Just a thought.

That's true, and I've no problem with a caster knowing their familiar was the target after the fact. I just don't want them to make a decision on whether to counter it based on who the spell is targeted at.

[Lord Twig]

Familiars are fair game, it's just not polite. :)

I may not be able to do the updates today. Ate something last night that gave me food poisoning and I have been laid low. Already been to the doctor and I am going to pass out now.

[generaljimX]

Sorry to hear that LT. I hope you feel better, and can get the updates posted:) .

[Lord Twig]

I'm back. Sorry for the delay.

After my recovery I had a ton of work to catch up on. I should be able to update the duels shortly.

[Darius]

Glad you are feeling better LT.

[Flagg Thornington]

Was it a case of bad Taco Bell???? Glad you've recovered, stomach pains are the pits.

[generaljimX]

Glad you're back Lord Twig. I felt really bad yesterday cause I thought you might have died or something and I was just joking about your situation.


Edit: Tsao should be one square north of his current position on the map. Normally I'd fight against something like this, but I'm going to let it slide. This is for fun, after all. I just hope my opponents are as generous as I am.

[generaljimX]

Thank you Boom for pointing out the charge thing for me. If you would, please, post things such as that here. That is what this thread is for, afterall. The point may be mute, however. Our match seems to be closing, and its not looking good for Tsao.

[Boomlaor]

Yeah, I really wish I'd have been able to interupt that dino. Oh well, been a fun fight (much better than Tsao's first fight!), and I've still got a trick or 2 up my sleeve! If only I had a bit more hp to work with. /sigh

[Lord Twig]

Thanks for the well wishes. Food poisoning is not fun.

It turns out it was probably some 'fresh' salsa that I had bought that wasn't so fresh. :tsk:

Anyway, some antibiotics, a shot, a couple more meds to suppress the nausea and lots of sleep took care of it.

[Black Plauge]

I'm going to argue that Loopy should have at least gotten a +4 bonus to his will save to disbelieve, if not an automatic sucess.

First off: his spellcraft check is easily high enough to identify the spell being cast. He thus knows that Gimbal cast shadow conjuration not summon monster III

Second: if the badgers were called in with summon monster III they wouldn't have been able to enter the area of the lesser globe of invulnerability.

Faced with both of those facts, its quite obvious that the badgers are shadows and not the real thing.

[Chris Chandler]

A fellow illusionist arguing to nerf an illusion so? The point of disbelief is not a mechanical "clearly those aren't real becuase the numbers say so" (which I would argue for a circumstance +2), but rather, "I know they aren't real, and I have convinced myself that they are not to the point that my will has overcome the effect", which yours didn't. Sure, you should have seen through it, but that didn't happen.

Oh, glad to have you back, LT!

[Black Plauge]

Were only the first fact true, I'd agree with you. It's the second fact that pushes me the other way. Its magically impossible that SMIII creatures could enter the area of a lesser globe of invulnerability. To me that constitutes at the very least a "communication" that the creatures aren't real (which would provide a +4 bonus by the rules).

[Chris Chandler]

But your argument is "My character knows what the spell is, so it shouldn't affect him." Well, okay - he can even cast the spell. That doesn't make him immune. It doesn't hold up with a wall of fire, and everyone can see that. An effect is a danger unless it is avoided, which is why we have a saving throw. The +4 bonus is for allies after a spell has be disbelieved:

If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus. .

[LuneMoonshadow]

Just a little input from the reader, but...

If Loopy knows the spell cast is a Shadow Conjuration, does he also know it is emulating SMIII? If he doesn't know it is emulating SMIII, he can't make the logical next step that it is impossible for them to exist there.

[Black Plauge]

Hmm... That is a good point. Knowing that the spell cast is shadow conjuration does not tell you what the spell being emulated is (though it has to be 3rd or lower). Also, the celestial badgers could be brought in by a SMIV or higher (though why you'd choose badgers over something on a higher list I don't know). So, while the logical connections might be there, that doesn't constitute proof or anything like that.

I withdraw my objection and will now proceed to kill Gimbal.

Er... Post my turn.:D

[Chris Chandler]

Unluck - nice one BP. I chose badgers for the joke, mostly - they're only there to pester, clearly. I was hoping for a full compliment, and hedge you in, but hey...

I half expected you to talk with them, though. That would have been great!

[Lord Twig]

Some good points and I can see that a +4 bonus to the save might be warranted. But since Gimbal can not cast Conjuration or Evocation spells, you could argue that any spell he cast from those schools would give his opponent a +4 bonus to his save because they would know they are not real.

Since I could not find any specific rule that a successful spellcraft check would give you +4 to your save against illusions, I decided that it would be closer to the rules as written to leave it out.

It is also worth noting that in this case it wouldn't make any difference at all. If you had succeeded in your Will save the badgers would have done 1/5 damage, with a minimum of one, which is their maximum damage as well. :)

[Black Plauge]

I argue out of principle when I feel something is wrong, not effect.

Oh, and if it weren't for the fact that using my spell-like ability to talk to the badgers would have meant not casting a spell, I just might have done it anyway.

[Lord Twig]

I'm here, but probably won't be able to update the duels until this evening.

Still catching up at work.

[generaljimX]

We all understand, LT. Even so, though, I'm going CRAZY not knowing whether I'm continuing in the tournament or I'm fighting for position. Its driving me NUTS!!!:? :? :?

Anyways, take your time. RL comes first, I always say. Don't always follow that motto, but I say it.

[Chris Chandler]

Waitaminute! I have to call a point of order here, pertaining to initiative, with my match.

I moved before the badgers - the badger that would eventually be in B9 was not providing cover when I cast my spell (becuase it wasn't there). It would have moved there afterwards. Likewise, there is no way the badger in B8 could have created cover in any instance. That's why I moved there, to cast the spell, then get cover from the badger that would move and attack after my spell! There isn't instantaneous initiative, and you even state that the badgers move after me.

[Black Plauge]

So, I really didn't want to cast heightened phantasmal killer on the defensive, but I dare not risk letting Gimbal get off another enervation which succeeds and removes my access to the spell.

[Black Plauge]

The cover bonus would have applied regardless.

To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).

Thus in order for Loopy not to have cover there has to be 1 corner of your square from which no lines on the way to a corner of my square which do not travel through the CS badger.

I've noted the lines that pass through a badger in the following image. You'll note that there is at least 1 line that passes through the badger from each corner.
http://www.uvm.edu/~rspringu/Tournament%20argument.JPG

[Chris Chandler]

Blast it - I'm going to lose a match because "any" drifted past my eyes. Cover is certainly nice - Glad I could provide it for you.

Merry freaking Christmas...

[Lord Twig]

Sorry Chris, but Black Plauge is right and that is exactly why I gave him cover.

Common sense would say that a badger would provide very little cover, especially if you are at an angle, but the rules are explicit and I need to follow them strictly in a PVP match.

Edit: Please keep bringing issues up! I encourage everyone to check any rulings I make that seems off to them.

[Boomlaor]

How can the PND take 2 move actions and still attack? Standing from prone is a move action, so you can't take a 5 foot step on top of that and still attack. The 5 foot step is only available if you take no other move actions. Moreover, if it does take that 5 foot step, it triggers another AoO from Tsao Tshu, which as I said in my PM is a trip attempt.

[Lord Twig]

How can the PND take 2 move actions and still attack? Standing from prone is a move action, so you can't take a 5 foot step on top of that and still attack. The 5 foot step is only available if you take no other move actions. Moreover, if it does take that 5 foot step, it triggers another AoO from Tsao Tshu, which as I said in my PM is a trip attempt.

I poured over this on the SRD and the way I read it, standing from prone is a move action, but it is not movement. The PND did not travel any distance. Since it did not take any other movement in the round it can 5' step as a free action and the 5' step does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

From the SRD:

Manipulate an Item
In most cases, moving or manipulating an item is a move action. This includes retrieving or putting away a stored item, picking up an item, moving a heavy object, and opening a door. Examples of this kind of action, along with whether they incur an attack of opportunity, are given in Table: Actions in Combat.

Direct or Redirect a Spell
Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell requires a move action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity or require concentration.

Stand Up
Standing up from a prone position requires a move action and provokes attacks of opportunity.

And:

Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance.

You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.

You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.

So Manipulate an Item, Direct or Redirect a Spell, and Stand Up are all move equivalent actions, but none of them are movement.

5' step says:

You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement.

None of the above actions is movement. Running, flying, swimming, etc.

Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity.

Never provokes, no matter what.

You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance.

The PND did not move any distance prior to or following the 5' step.

I have expanded it in this way to show the logic I used to allow the PND to do what it did. I hope that helps.

[Boomlaor]

Stand Up
Standing up from a prone position requires a move action and provokes attacks of opportunity.

And:

Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance.

You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance.

The PND did not move any distance prior to or following the 5' step.

I have expanded it in this way to show the logic I used to allow the PND to do what it did. I hope that helps.
The way I read this, standing up is a move action, can only take a 5 foot step if you don't perform any other kind of movement. Standing up is a kind of movement, so you can't take a 5 foot step on top of it. You can move 5' after standing, but that counts as a double move IMHO, and unfortunately I made Tsao Tshu's actions under that assumption. You're the DM, so what you say goes, but I disagree with how you're interpreting the rules. Either way, good match Generaljimx, and goodluck in the tourney.

Boomlaor

[The Hive Custodian]

I'm with Lord Twig on this one. Interpreting "movement" as (only) square-to-square movement has the advantage of providing a clear border between what is and isn't movement. Interpreting standing up as movement relies on a more informal definition of movement: there we get into the issue of where to draw the line. After all, do you not move your hand when you draw a weapon, cast a spell, or open a door? Do you not step to the side as the ogre brings a greatclub down on the spot where you were standing a moment before?

[Boomlaor]

I'm with Lord Twig on this one. Interpreting "movement" as (only) square-to-square movement has the advantage of providing a clear border between what is and isn't movement. Interpreting standing up as movement relies on a more informal definition of movement: there we get into the issue of where to draw the line. After all, do you not move your hand when you draw a weapon, cast a spell, or open a door? Do you not step to the side as the ogre brings a greatclub down on the spot where you were standing a moment before?The difference between standing from prone and the examples you put forth (drawing a weapon excluded), though, is that standing from prone is defined as a move action. Casting a spell or swinging a club are standard actions.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Drawing a weapon is also a move action, but that isn't movement. Neither is pulling something from your pack, which is yet another move action.

A move action is either an action that is movement or an action that takes a similar amount of time.

[Boomlaor]

That's just it, a 5 foot step is free when you take no other movement because you have the extra time. If you've taken a move action, you've used that time, and you don't have the time to take a 5 foot step carefully (i.e. without provoking an AoO) AND still attack. As I said, it's water under the bridge, DM already ruled on it, but I disagree with the ruling.

[The Hive Custodian]

First of all, a standard action takes at least as much "time" as a move action:
You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.

Second, the SRD makes no time distinction between a full-round action and a standard + move action:
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action.

Finally, the SRD explicitly allows a 5-foot step if no actual distance is moved in a round, even when a move action is used:
Move Action: A move action allows you to move your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time. See Table: Actions in Combat.
You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.

[Boomlaor]

Hadn't seen that last section you quoted. Ok, I'll conceed at this point :) . I just wish I had seen that before, so I could have planned for it. Oh well, congratulations Generaljimx!!! If only I had read complete arcane before I made Tsao Tshu also. The Enlightened Fist Prestige Class is exactly what I was trying to make, and would have made him much stronger. Oh well, to be used in the next mage duel maybe.

[nightinverse]

Complete Arcane is a patently broken supplement.

[/micro-rant]

[Lord Twig]

Duels are updated and we have two more winners!

Sorry for the delay. Once again life gets in the way. I will make a concerted effort to maintain a once per day update for the next round.

[Black Plauge]

Lesser rods of metamagic cannot be used with shadow evocation. They are limited to 3rd level spells and lower and shadow evocation is a 5th level spell, regardless of what spell it is being used to duplicate. Gimbal thus still suffers the failure chance to botch the spell because he can't hear.

[Chris Chandler]

they sure are... craptastic. Well, the waving was nice, at least.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Chris' character moved to B9 on the map, but his action says B6. Error, or is there a reason?

[Chris Chandler]

Lord Twig and I PMed a bit of confusion on my part (can you imagine?) and I asked him to post actions accordingly. He notes it with his post.

[Black Plauge]

Whisper is no longer holding the charge on the touch of idiocy. Said spell automatically dissapated when Gimbal cast his shadow evoctation.

[Lord Twig]

Removed the Touch of Idiocy charge from Whisper and added 7 points of damage to Loopy. I had thought that Contingent Energy Resistance worked exactly like Energy Resistance where the protection goes up to 20 points at level 7, but apparently it does not.

[Black Plauge]

Yeah. I noticed that too but wasn't sure if my memory was correct on exactly how much protection it provided. I was going to check it when I got home, but since you've already taken care of it...

[Boomlaor]

Shadow Conjuration to mimic a summon monster spell is SWEET. Summon monster as a standard action. I'll have to remember that in the future.

[Lord Twig]

Yes, it can be nice, but it has a couple drawbacks. Your enemy gets a save to have it do 1/5 damage and the creature has 1/5 hit points regardless of the save. So Loopy's crocodile would only have had 4 hit points.

[Black Plauge]

Considering that the creatures it calls are at best 20% real, Rapid Spell (feat from Complete Arcane) is better. There's no Will save to disbelieve the real thing.

Also, bear in mind that any creature that is summoned with a standard or swift action spell (say a quickened version of SM) can only take a standard action on the round when it first appears. That means no full-attacks out of the gate which you can get with a normal SM spell.

[Lord Twig]

Chris Chandler brought up an issue that I was unsure how to rule on. His badgers did 1d2-1 damage with their claws. If they hit they would do 0 or 1 damage with a minimum of 1. So on a critical hit, do you adjust for minimum damage for each roll then add them together for a minimum of 2 damage? Or do you add them together and then if the total is 0 adjust the damage to the minimum of 1?

Edit: Note, Loopy ended the duel with 20 HP, so it would not change the outcome, but if the crocodile had missed it might have made a difference.

[Black Plauge]

Minimum Damage: If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of damage.

Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

My interpretation is of the two is that the minimum doesn't get applied until after the multiple damage rolls since the minimum applies to a "hit" and not to a "damage roll" while the multiplication is applied to the "damage roll" and not the "hit."

Plus, that way there is a difference between a creature that does say 1d3-2 and one that does 1d3-4 (the first does 2 damage on a critical, the second only 1).

[Chris Chandler]

good match bp. Now to take out a sorcerer...

[generaljimX]

But what if you get matched against Rasca, eh? Should be an interesting fight if he were to get paired against any of the illusionists.

[Chris Chandler]

Oh, that's right - I forgot about Rasca - I think that will be a gooooood match.

[Lord Twig]

The new matches are up.

Rasca gets to face an illusionist, though not Gimbal. Gimbal is facing TarNoch. And finally Frizznik and Darek get to face off.

Should be some good duels! :)

[generaljimX]

Yes. I'm not expecting a win out of this, but it will at least be fun. To tell the truth, the first thing I said when I read that Rasca was facing Loopy was "Oooooooh, crap." Take that as a compliment, BP.

[Black Plauge]

I will.

[generaljimX]

Its killing me not know who won initiative. Lord Twig probably had some kind of RL problem, or is waiting to get all PM's before updating so he can do it all at once.

[generaljimX]

I'm checking back about once every hour, and its driving me crazy. You're doing this to me on purpose, aren't you LT?

[Lord Twig]

Sorry to keep you in suspense. The first rounds always take me a little longer to set up.

[generaljimX]

I figured as much. I just didn't have anything to do last night, so I kept revisiting the site. Now today I get on, and I had a bit of a tough decision in front of me. I'm still not sure that I've made the right decision, but it'll work for now.

[nightinverse]

There is one thing to be said for well-executed duels: they are grand entertainment.

[Boomlaor]

I thought of this briefly during the cassandrella v Frizznik fight, and it's happening again and I still don't know that it's right. Why do evard's black tentacles not have to do a touch attack before the opposed grapple check? Anything else that grapples has to do this. It seems that the target of the spell should get either a) a reflex save (which it doesn't) or b) a chance to avoid the tentacles, instead of merely being able to overpower them.

[Black Plauge]

I thought of this briefly during the cassandrella v Frizznik fight, and it's happening again and I still don't know that it's right. Why do evard's black tentacles not have to do a touch attack before the opposed grapple check? Anything else that grapples has to do this. It seems that the target of the spell should get either a) a reflex save (which it doesn't) or b) a chance to avoid the tentacles, instead of merely being able to overpower them.

Primarily because the spell doesn't have an attack score for any kind of initial touch attack, but just a grapple check modifier. While the wording isn't explicit that the tentacles automatically grapple their targets, the fact that the spell doesn't have the requisite attack score implies that the spell automatically grapples.

[Boomlaor]

Treat the tentacles attacking a particular target as a Large creature with a base attack bonus equal to your caster level and a Strength score of 19.
Sounds like they have an attack score of caster lvl + 3 (+4 str, -1 large) to me.

[Lord Twig]

Expanding your quote a little farther.


Every creature within the area of the spell must make a grapple check, opposed by the grapple check of the tentacles. Treat the tentacles attacking a particular target as a Large creature with a base attack bonus equal to your caster level and a Strength score of 19. Thus, its grapple check modifier is equal to your caster level +8.


It simply says that every creature must make a grapple check and says nothing about them having to make an attack roll. That is why I have ruled as I have.

[Lord Twig]

Waiting for a reply from Chris before I resolve his actions for Round 3 Match 1.

[Boomlaor]

It simply says that every creature must make a grapple check and says nothing about them having to make an attack roll. That is why I have ruled as I have.

However,


Starting a Grapple

To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).
Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2.
Step 2: Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3.
Step 3: Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action. If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.
If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are.
In case of a tie, the combatant with the higher grapple check modifier wins. If this is a tie, roll again to break the tie.



This is how grappling works. No AoO, of course, since you can't damage the tentacles, but before there is an opposed grapple check to hold on, the grappler needs to touch the grapplee. In the SRD, this spell even links to this section on grappling. I don't have a paper PHB, but (as far as logic goes in this game anyhow) it doesn't make sense for this spell to be the exception to how all other grappling works without it specifically saying so.

[Black Plauge]

Note, however, that the linking is not part of the actual SRD. That's just someone's attempt to make their version of the SRD more useful and does not constitute offical rules.

[Boomlaor]

The argument remains though, generally there are no exceptions to the rules unless explicitly stated. The black tentacles spell doesn't explicitly state that it works differently from any other grappler, so it should work the same as any other grappler.

[Linklegacy77]

I'm not part of this, but I thought I might help out. It's a spell, and thus is excluded from general rules that characters normally have to follow. The spell description is exactly what it does, and it doesn't require a check to hit.

[Flagg Thornington]

One thing to note, even if Frizznick breaks free of the grapple, he could not make it to B3 in one action. Movement in the area of a Black Tentacles spell is reduce to half.

[Boomlaor]

Escape from Grapple: You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action. If more than one opponent is grappling you, your grapple check result has to beat all their individual check results to escape. (Opponents don’t have to try to hold you if they don’t want to.) If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to your opponent(s).

I don't know if that'd let me move all the way to the edge, but it should let me move at least 5' in one direction. Looks like you're right though, B4 would be as far as he can go, which straight up sucks. Odds are bad enough of actually escaping, there's no way I'll ever escape twice. I truly loathe that spell.

[Linklegacy77]

It's a very good anti-caster spell
Which is one reason to have a ring of counterspells ready for it in an actual game.

[Boomlaor]

Or to have taken still spell instead of silent spell (especially in light of the fact that I have a metamagic silence rod).

[Boomlaor]

I looked around the Wizards site and found this tidbit, which I'll throw out as a final bit of evidence that my interpretation is correct.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040720a


Grappling Spells

Some spells can reach out and grab you just as a creature can. These spells include Evard's black tentacles and several of the Bigby's hand spells. Such spells make grapple attacks as creatures of a size listed in the spell's description, except that they don't provoke attacks of opportunity when they grab creatures. A number of spells in this category entangle creatures they aren't grappling (Evard's black tentacles, for example); if this is the case, the spell's description will say so.


The only exception that this rule gives to the generic grapple attacks is that the spells don't provoke an AoO. It flat out states that they make grapple attacks as a creature of the size in the spell's description. A grapple attack begins with a touch attack, the spells shouldn't get to skip this step.

[Chris Chandler]

Why does WOTC word things this way? Just make a ruling, and piss half the players off, already.

I tend to side with Boomalar on this, but I've got to say - Touch attacks against lightly armored wizards are almost a non-issue.

The FAQ is pretty clear, though. Methinks that R&D needs a few editors that do nothing but make sure that what is said in one place is accurately stated in another. I do think they've done a better job than in years past (2e is a nightmare behind us), but there is room for improvement. As for the rest of this tourney, I don't see another spell of consequence being cast - It's tentacles for the win with this interpretation, stoneskin or not.

[Black Plauge]

We shall see. I personally think that Loopy's going to get a good massage before killing his opponent.

[generaljimX]

Speaking of stoneskin, would it reduce the bludeoning damage of an ice storm? Part of me says yes, part of me says no.

Anyways, stoneskin and a lesser globe of invulnerabilty is a nice combo. Can't dispel the stoneskin without dispelling the globe first. I've got me a tough fight to get through to stay in the tourny.....

[Black Plauge]

Yes. Stoneskin reduces the bludgeoning damage of an ice storm, just like it'll reduce the damage of that your pseudonatural boar will deal. Any physical damage dealt by a spell (i.e. damage that is typed as bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing) has to deal with DR.

Now ice storm's cold damage isn't reduced by stoneskin, but that's what contingent energy resistance if for.:)

Note: The clearest statement of a ruling similar to this is actually in Complete Psionic where it's talking about metacreativity powers. The logic is the same, however, for spells.

[Darius]

Much as it pains me to admit it, I'm also with Boomlaor. I can see an argument in favor of consistency, seeing how you treated it last round, but will abide the decision in any case.

Also: Greater Invisibility+Tentacles=WIN!

[Flagg Thornington]

I can't wait for another tournament to start, because everyone now know's what the most potent spell combos are and can prepare for them. I gurantee that everyone will have access to see invisibilty, and have some spell handy to counter Phantasmal Killer. Then midway through the next tournament everyone will want to change the rules about the higher level spells you now have acess to.

Whatever anyone think's the rules should be concerning the tentacles, I believe that it should not be changed while the tourney is underway.

[Chris Chandler]

Didn't everyone have see invisibility? PK is a good spell, but not against a mage, or anyone else with a good will save. You have to heighten it, or force a bad roll for it to work against such an opponent.

I agree though, the next mage tourny will certainly see some changes, by the competitors, at least.

[Darius]

Not everyone had see invisibility. A few took glitterdust in case their opponent tried to go invisible though. Still, that doesn't help you much in that opening round.

[Black Plauge]

Given that in most games the favorite tactic of higher level mages is greater invisibility and fly to avoid melee, I'm supprised that everyone didn't have see invisibility, especially since its duration is long enough that it can be precast.

Oh, and the tentacles wouldn't be such a big deal if the tournament rules hadn't prohibited divine casters and bards and special made items. Freedom of movement totally neutralizes evard's black tentacles.

Didn't everyone have see invisibility? PK is a good spell, but not against a mage, or anyone else with a good will save. You have to heighten it, or force a bad roll for it to work against such an opponent.
Heighten only gets you +1 to the DC in this tournament. It's all the other things that I've done to boost the DC that make it so nasty.

[Chris Chandler]

Oh sure - the spin ability is gold, when you get it off.

Absolutely about divine casters and bards. It'd be a completely different game.

[Lord Twig]

I am surprised that nobody picked up Dimension Door. That is a wizards escape route. It only has a verbal component.

[Black Plauge]

Banned school.

[nightinverse]

That is why specialization... well, I don't quite consider it balanced.

[Darius]

LT- should I go ahead and post the next action for Darek, or should I wait on Boom?

[Lord Twig]

I have gone ahead and updated the match. You can go ahead and post. :)

[Lord Twig]

Ugh, I have two of the duels updated. Going to sleep now. Will finish the third duel tomorrow.

[Flagg Thornington]

I will be away from pcs and the city till monday. The beach has called and invited me down to visit. Have a good weekend everyone.

[Boomlaor]

Just wanted to draw your attention back to my post number 203 in this thread.
If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to your opponent(s). As I read it, I should have been able to move 5' as part of escaping from the tentacles, and then take a move action (at half speed) through them, for a total of 15' of movement. This should put me at B4.

[Lord Twig]

That rule seems to be there so that you do not end up in the same square as an enemy when you are not grappling. In the case of Evard's Black Tentacles there is no opponent for you to move adjacent to. It is just a spell effect.

Do others have thoughts on this?

[Darius]

I think it makes sense for there to be a 5' step as part of the escape even though it is a spell effect. He's moving away from the tentacles that had grappled him after all.

LT- also- Sword of Deception only inflicts a -1 to saves per hit (-2 per critical hit) and does 1d4 damage per strike.

[Boomlaor]

About the sword, 2 questions:

1) Should it have a miss chance (or even not be able to target me) because I'm invisible?

2) Should the tentacles attempt to grapple it?

[Lord Twig]

I think it makes sense for there to be a 5' step as part of the escape even though it is a spell effect. He's moving away from the tentacles that had grappled him after all.

LT- also- Sword of Deception only inflicts a -1 to saves per hit (-2 per critical hit) and does 1d4 damage per strike.

From the Spell Compendium, p217:

The blade attacks with a base attack bonus equal to your caster level, dealing 1d8 points of damage per hit and threatening a critical hit on a roll of 19-20. In addition, each successful hit provides a -2 penalty on the target's next saving throw roll (-4 on a successful critical hit). This penalty is cumulative (to a maximum of -5 on a single creature) and lasts until the creature is forced to make a saving throw in a dangerous situation or receives the benefit of a remove curse spell.

So I actually made a mistake the first time. Frizznik's save penalty is now -5.

About the sword, 2 questions:

1) Should it have a miss chance (or even not be able to target me) because I'm invisible?

2) Should the tentacles attempt to grapple it?

The sword is targeted by Darek and he has a See Invisibility spell up.

The sword is a force effect and as such is immune to the tentacles.

Edit: Also, the Sword of Deception is a 4th level spell, not a 5th level spell. I missed that until just now.

[Darius]

From the Spell Compendium, p217:

The blade attacks with a base attack bonus equal to your caster level, dealing 1d8 points of damage per hit and threatening a critical hit on a roll of 19-20. In addition, each successful hit provides a -2 penalty on the target's next saving throw roll (-4 on a successful critical hit). This penalty is cumulative (to a maximum of -5 on a single creature) and lasts until the creature is forced to make a saving throw in a dangerous situation or receives the benefit of a remove curse spell.

So I actually made a mistake the first time. Frizznik's save penalty is now -5.



The sword is targeted by Darek and he has a See Invisibility spell up.

The sword is a force effect and as such is immune to the tentacles.

Edit: Also, the Sword of Deception is a 4th level spell, not a 5th level spell. I missed that until just now.

See- I was using the Complete: Arcane version of the spell that is both a higher level and (obviously) quite bit less nasty. Wow.

[Flagg Thornington]

LT, I specifically read the spell description and placed it so that it would not collapse on itself. I would have simply moved the originating point 5-feet south to make it last, Tarnoch would have known that the wall was five feet from the arena. Confusion abounds and Tarnoch once again gets the short end because it's the first time that particular rule came into play...Oh well

[Lord Twig]

LT, I specifically read the spell description and placed it so that it would not collapse on itself. I would have simply moved the originating point 5-feet south to make it last, Tarnoch would have known that the wall was five feet from the arena. Confusion abounds and Tarnoch once again gets the short end because it's the first time that particular rule came into play...Oh well

Moving the web so that it hits the arena wall wouldn't help.

From the SRD:
These masses must be anchored to two or more solid and diametrically opposed points or else the web collapses upon itself and disappears.

The points must be completely opposite. So you could hang the web between two opposite walls or a floor and a ceiling, but not a floor and a wall.

Also, I have never said how far the walls of the arena are from the dueling circle. Some of the maps have already hinted that the walls must be at least 15' from the circle since they have extended out that far and no wall was displayed. I think 20' from the circle is more reasonable. It allows for Fireballs cast at the edge of the arena to explode without hitting the walls or the audience. Behind the walls is solid earth (the arena is sunken) and the top of the walls are covered with permanent Walls of Force, to allow people to see without getting blasted.

As for the movement after escaping from Evard's Black Tentacles. The rules allow you to move after an escape to a square adjacent to your opponent. Since there is no opponent there is no movement. I appreciate everyone's input, but I am convinced that this is the way it was intended to work.

[Boomlaor]

As for the movement after escaping from Evard's Black Tentacles. The rules allow you to move after an escape to a square adjacent to your opponent. Since there is no opponent there is no movement. I appreciate everyone's input, but I am convinced that this is the way it was intended to work.

Frizznik should still have been able to move 10' to B5. Movement through the tentacles is at half speed, his speed is 20'.

[Lord Twig]

Moving to B6 required 15' of movement, which does not leave Frizznik enough to move to B5. He could move to A5, but he would be squeezing to stay in the ring.

Also, B4 is not in the area of the Black Tentacle spell, so you do not need to go all the way to B3 to escape.

From the SRD:

Difficult Terrain: Difficult terrain hampers movement. Each square of difficult terrain counts as 2 squares of movement. (Each diagonal move into a difficult terrain square counts as 3 squares.) You can’t run or charge across difficult terrain.

[Boomlaor]

Alrighty, to A5 then

[generaljimX]

The boar only made one attack, and thus took only a standard action so far. It is a standard action for it to alter forms. Thus, it can still alter its form before Loopy's action.

[Lord Twig]

You only get one standard action and one move action per round. So if the boar spends an action changing forms it will not be able to attack.

[Black Plauge]

Loopy will use his Fickle Finger of Fate ability to force Rasca to reroll that dispell check.

Note: This does not count as Loopy's turn. It happens during Rasca's turn. I will wait to post my action until the new dispel check has been resolved.

[generaljimX]

LT: Ok. My misinterpretation. Will have to keep that in mind for my games....


BP: OOOOOHHHHH!!!!:mad: Good use of the ability. So, I need a what, 11? Lets see what my home dice say about that......13, so 22 total. This could be an indication that the dice want that globe dispelled. If I fail this time, however, it doesn't really matter. The tentacles will still be there when the globe expires.

[Lord Twig]

Sorry generaljimX, my dice have let you down this time. But that is the thing about tournaments, one persons bad luck is another persons good.

[generaljimX]

NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! Ah, just means I have to wait, like six rounds to hurt him with a magic missle.

[Boomlaor]

Just gives more time to crank out the beasties. Sorry, since Frizznik is about to be eliminated I need to live vicariously through another summoner.

[generaljimX]

Ah, but with his stoneskin still up, I need to use higher summons to hurt him. Plus, I have to use at least a four to be able to have them enter inside the globe right now.

[Chris Chandler]

Yeah, but you don't have to hurt him, just knock his stoneskin down - all of those attacks do indeed whittle his defenses down. The more creatures the better, for that.

[Black Plauge]

Okay, I've been reviewing the rules, and I'm going to need to lodge a protest once my current match is completed, but before the next one starts. As a result I'd appreciate it if Lord Twig wouldn't start the next round right away.

[Lord Twig]

Certainly. I have been doing my best to follow the rules and be fair in determining actions. If there is some concern I want to make sure it is resolved before we move forward.

[generaljimX]

Now BP has me wondering whether I, Lord Twig, or some other contestant has done something......unlawful? Cheap? No, no-cheesy.

[Lord Twig]

The server that I host my maps on will be going down tonight for maintenance. They will be back by tomorrow (I hope). I will try to get the duels updated tonight.

[Black Plauge]

The pseudonatural dire boar cannot both change form and attack. Changing form is a standard action.

[generaljimX]

I keep forgetting that. Just an attack, then. I'll go and edit the post...

[generaljimX]

Doesn't the lesser globe of invulnerability nullify 3rd level spells and below? And burning hands is a 1st level spell, right? OK, then how did TarNoch cast the second inside the first? I guess you could rule that his hand, and the affected area, are outside the globe due to it being half-spherical, but that seems weak.