Duel Arcana Rules

[Lord Twig]

Duel Arcana Rules

Character Creation

All characters must be arcane casters with a caster level of at least 7th level, must be able to cast 4th level arcane spells, and have the ability to counterspell.
Characters will be built using the Point Buy rules and will have 32 points. Attribute adjustments due to age will not be allowed.

Hit Points will follow the RPGA standard (max on first HD, half die size +1 for rest).
Characters will start with 36,500 Experience Points. This will effectively give you a 9th level character, but extensive use of Item Creation feats could lower you to 8th level.
Standard equipment will be allowed. You will have 36,000gp to spend and all items must be under 10,000gps (market price) except that you may have one ability enhancing item of +4. So you could have a Headband of Intellect +4 (16,000gps) and all other items would be worth 10,000gps or less.
Items will be limited to what is available in the allowed resources. You may not use the item creation rules to make unique items.
Items or abilities that cast or mimic spells above 5th level are not permitted.
One-use items will be limited to no more than 5000gp in total value.
Charged items must be purchased fully charged (wands, staves, etc.)
Item creation feats may be used to save money, but XP must be spent and may effectively lower your level. You must be of the correct level or higher to create an item.
If your character requires a spellbook you get free spells added to your book as given for your class. Any additional spells must be scribed into the book at the cost of 100gps per page/level.
Allowed resources: Player’s Handbook, Dungeon Master’s Guide, Monster Manual, Complete: Adventurer, Complete: Arcane, Complete: Divine, Complete: Warrior, Spell Compendium and the SRD. Note: The current Errata and FAQ will be used.
It is encouraged, though not required, to make complete characters with a personality and perhaps a little history (no need to write a novel though ;) ).
This is supposed to be fun. With that in mind anyone may object to a character that seems unbalanced before the duels start. I will review the character and will have final say on which characters may join the contest.
If you wish you may provide a picture of your character to be used in the duels. They should be 40x40 in size. If not I will try to reduce them to fit, but I make no guarantees.Game Rules

The Rules as Written will be followed as closely as possible. In the case of an unclear rule I will make a judgment as best I can. You may contest any ruling once. I will review the arguments and make a final judgment. Final judgments are just that, final.
Since counterspelling will be a large part of the game, if there is a question about whether something can or can not be counterspelled, the default answer will be that it can. I reserve the right to rule otherwise if I think it is more in line with the intent of the rules.
As the DM, in addition to rulings I will also make all dice rolls and determine and post the results of all actions.
Each player will have 24 hours to post their move when it is their turn. Weekends will not count toward the 24 hour limit, but duels may still be updated during that time. If you fail to post in 24 hours you will be assumed to ready an action to counterspell and the next player’s turn will start.
Unless you specify otherwise, a ready action to counterspell will assume that you counter with a spell match first, then other qualified spells, and finally Dispel Magic.
Each player will be allowed to enter up to two contestants. Each contestant should be significantly different in some way. If I determine them to be too closely related I will disqualify one of them.
Before a duel you may send your character’s list of prepared spells to me as a private message. This will keep your opponent (and the audience) guessing as to what you will do next.
For convenience, all active spells will be known to both duelists. There will be no need for a Spellcraft check. The in-character announcers will be calling off the spells as they see them. Spellcraft checks will still be required to counter a spell, however.
At the end of the Duel Arcana, XP will be handed out to all of the Duelist for matches won. This will have no effect on the tournament, but is there for those that like to keep track of such things.Duel Arcana Rules

To gain entry into the Duel Arcana, the prospective duelist must cast one spell of 4th level or higher and counterspell one 0 level spell (their choice) that is cast by an event official.
The Duel Arcana will be double elimination. Duelist will be assigned matches at random, although some leeway will be given to ensure that the Duelist does not face the same opponent twice.
In the event of the death of a duelist, they will be raised with a Raise Dead spell. If this is their first loss they may then elect to continue in the Duel Arcana or forfeit. If they continue they will be under the effect of a Negative Level that can not be removed. A duelist that dies a second time will not be raised.
Duelists must show up 1 hour before the start of the duel and may not cast any spells during that time. Spells lasting longer than 1 hour may be cast in advance.
In the case of odd competitors, a bye will be awarded to advance one to the next round. No Player may receive more than one bye unless all remaining players have had one. A bye does not count as a loss, but it also does not count as a win.
If both duelist are knocked unconscious simultaneously it will be a draw. A draw will count as half a loss. So one loss and one draw will mean that the duelist is still in the contest, but one loss and two draws will mean that the duelist is out.
Every duelist will fight in a duel each day unless they have a bye.
Duelist and their familiars will be fully healed after each match. Between duels they will have time to rest and prepare new spells.
Familiars will be allowed to participate. Cohorts, followers, animal companions (including animal companions that are also familiars), etc. will not be allowed in the arena.
The arena will be a 65’ diameter circle and the duelist will start at opposite sides. The ground inside the circle is covered in short grass and outside of the circle is dirt. Familiars will start in the same square as their master or in an adjacent square.http://www.cyberkeep.org/maps/spellduel.jpg

During the Duel

On the first round only spells that target the caster and only the caster may be cast. The spell may be shared with the caster's familiar. Spell casting is the only action that may be performed in the first round. No movement is allowed.
On the second round each duelist may prepare themselves. That is, they may ready an action to counterspell their opponent or take the total defense action. Readying an action to counterspell or total defense are the only actions that may be performed in the second round. No movement is allowed.
On the third round the duel starts.
Physical combat, while discouraged, is not prohibited.
If a duelist intentionally leaves the arena circle they will be disqualified. If they are forced out, the duel will be placed on hold until the duelist returns, which they must do as quickly as possible or be disqualified.
Duelists may not fly higher than 50’ or travel underground more than 20’ deep.
The rules restricting movement also applies to familiars, summoned creatures and spell effects (flaming sphere for example).
An Archmage on the sidelines will enforce the rules, including counterspelling or dispelling any illegal spells cast during the first 2 rounds of the duel.
Anyone caught cheating will be given a warning. If they are caught cheating a second time they will be disqualified.
The duel ends when one of the combatants yields, is knocked unconscious, or is otherwise unable to continue dueling. If a duelist is incapacitated by a spell with no immediate chance of recovery (for example, Deep Slumber) the duel will be called and the duelist still standing will be declared the winner. In the case of a spell that allows a save every round (for example, Hold Person) the duel will continue.

[Lord Twig]

Rule discussions and clarifications can be made here. The rules are not yet set in stone, so any suggestions are welcome.

That said I do not want to stray too far from what I have already posted. In the future I may go to higher levels or add other resources (if I can get my hands on them). This is considered the intermediate level of the Duel Arcana.

I will post any changes or additions to the above rules in red.

I will start a sign up thread in a day or two after I am sure that there will be no serious changes to the rules here.

[Darius]

One question: are you disallowing attribute adjustments due to age?

[Lord Twig]

Good question. Yes, I will add that to the rules.

[Darius]

Will Spellcraft checks still be part of the counterspell mechanism? I ask because of the last part of the game rules.

[Lord Twig]

For counterspelling, yes, Spellcraft checks will be required. After the spell is cast it will be announced.

[Black Plauge]

Restrictions on animal companions: What about a character whose familiar is also an animal companion?

[Linklegacy77]

You mean such as an Arcane Hierophant?

[Lord Twig]

I will have to look that up. Is that in Complete Divine?

I may allow it. Improved Familiars will be allowed, I am not sure how big the power difference will be.

[Black Plauge]

I think that particular class is in Races of the Wild, but there may be another way to aquire the ability, I don't know. A ruling on the ability will settle the debate either way though.

[Lord Twig]

After some thought I have decided to not allow it. I really want to focus on spell interaction and not physical combat.

[generaljimX]

Is this still going to happen? There hasn't been any entries posted, so I was just wondering. I plan on having two entries, but that will most likely be reduced to one due to the long creation I just went through for something over at 3EBB. Anyways, I should get at least one character in by the end of the week.

[Chris Chandler]

I'm hoping so - I know I've been quiet, but I've been looking forward to this particular competition for a bit. I think the rules, as stated, will make for a nice, balanced competition, favoring spellcasting and strategic planning over mongerbuilding.

[Lord Twig]

Thanks Chris, I have been giving the rules a lot of thought for sometime and I would really like to test them.

Things have been slow, but I do intend to run the match. I would like to have at least 8 entries which would give us four or five rounds. I have posted a couple notes about this competition on 3EBB, but there is currently a Cleric vs. Druid match over there that is taking peoples attention.

I am glad to hear that you are thinking of entering generaljimX. That is the first real commitment that I have received from anyone. And Chris, are you joining as well?

If I can get a few solid entries and at least a hint of more to come I will set a deadline for final entries and a tentative start date.

[Black Plauge]

I'll play. Probably only one entry as I've got to work on revising the Gladiator Rules so they're ready for the next tournament.

Plus, I have to defend my position as the only one to win tournaments not run by myself.

[Lord Twig]

Well, looking at the standings right now. It looks like if you win a tournament, you have to run the next one. At least that is how it has worked out so far.

[Lord Twig]

Good news for spell-flingers. I have added the Spell Compendium as an allowed resource. So there will be tons more spells to fling around. :)

[Flagg Thornington]

I'd like to enter two characters in the dual. The rules look fine to me.
For the next tournament we could go up to level fifteen. Then 20, etc.
And then we could explore the epic level handbook...
I didn't even realize that you were starting this up untill I posted a recruitment add in the character aquisition thread. I'll have a couple characters posted later this week.

[The Hive Custodian]

Some more questions:
As you may be aware, there has recently been a major errata change (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060216a) to isolate polymorph and similar spells. Are polymorph, and similar spells, such as alter self, banned from this competition?
What manner of healing (if any) will be provided between matches? How soon after the match will this healing be provided? Will this healing be automatic, or must the character specifically request it?
Will characters recieve experience for winning matches?
Are only standard races allowed?
What are the rules regarding the use of extradimensional spaces?
What happens if both contestants are defeated simultaneously?

[Chris Chandler]

Oh, I'm in - I'll need to set aside some time to make my char., but I've been waiting since the start of winter - I'll participate.

[treehouse]

I think I'm in as well. I've been wanting to try out the wu-jen for a while now, and this seems like an opportune time. When is this happening? I've got mid-terms this week, but I should have time to put a character together soon.

Also, you mentioned the cost of putting spells in books with the sort of language that implies (to me at least) that Boccob's blessed books are not allowed. Is this just my perception of things? I realize that they are above the cost limit, but not if you craft one yourself. Might not be practical anyway given the nature of the tournament, but I just don't see a preparing arcane caster not getting one if he exists before and after the tournament.

[Lord Twig]

Some more questions:

As you may be aware, there has recently been a major errata change (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060216a) to isolate polymorph and similar spells. Are polymorph, and similar spells, such as alter self, banned from this competition?
What manner of healing (if any) will be provided between matches? How soon after the match will this healing be provided? Will this healing be automatic, or must the character specifically request it?
Will characters recieve experience for winning matches?
Are only standard races allowed?
What are the rules regarding the use of extradimensional spaces?
What happens if both contestants are defeated simultaneously?

1. No, Polymorph, Alter Self, and similar spells will all be allowed using the current errata. I am inclined to allow all spells from the listed resources to see how they play out. After this tournament, if one spell shines above all others we may discuss banning certain spells from future competitions.
2. Heal spells, Restorations, and just about anything else that you need will be readily available and will be given free of charge. Healing will be done immediately after the match. Death is the only condition that has special rules involved with the Raise Dead spell. You will not need to ask as a player for healing, it will just be assumed.
3. That is a good idea. I see no reason why not. So winning characters will receive full XP for defeating their opponent. You get full because there is a chance of death or level loss. Also, you will not be able to level during the tournament. But it might help with casting spells with an XP cost. Edit: On second thought, I will give out XP after the tournament is over. That will just make things easier all around.
4. No, you can play anything out of any of the approved resources. If this becomes a problem I might consider limiting races in future tournaments. Remember, I still have a right to refuse any character if it looks like they have an unfair advantage. I don't believe it will be necessary though.
5. I'm not sure I can make a blanket ruling on extra dimensional spaces. If you cast a Rope Trick and climbed inside you would probably be fine. Or if you threw down a Portable Hole and jumped inside. In either of those cases you would not be considered to have left the arena. Likewise if you cast Blink you would be fine even though you are on the Ethereal Plane half the time. If you cast Plane Shift however, you would automatically lose.
6. That is a good question. A simultaneous loss would result in a draw. A draw will be counted as half a loss.
The number of wins really doesn't matter, it is the number of losses that determines when you are out. So if you draw once and then lose once, you are still in the game, but if you draw or lose again you are out.

I will update the rules above to take new rulings into account.

[Lord Twig]

I think I'm in as well. I've been wanting to try out the wu-jen for a while now, and this seems like an opportune time. When is this happening? I've got mid-terms this week, but I should have time to put a character together soon.

Also, you mentioned the cost of putting spells in books with the sort of language that implies (to me at least) that Boccob's blessed books are not allowed. Is this just my perception of things? I realize that they are above the cost limit, but not if you craft one yourself. Might not be practical anyway given the nature of the tournament, but I just don't see a preparing arcane caster not getting one if he exists before and after the tournament.

I can start whenever everyone is ready. I think I have enough interest that I can put a deadline on character creation now. So I will say that all characters must be posted by next Wednesday, March 15th. Then I we will all have a chance to review characters and I will start the matches on the following Monday, March 20th.

The value of Boccob's Blessed Book is 12,500gps and so is not allowed regardless of whether you crafted it yourself or not. It is the total worth of the object, not how much you personally spent on it, that determines whether an item is allowed or not. The 10,000gp limit is rather arbitrary, but I wanted to encourage people to build well-rounded characters and not just sink all of their money into one killer item.

The problem with Boccob's Blessed Book is that it would give you 1000 levels of spells for the same price as 125 levels of spells (or 62.5 if you make it yourself ;) ). Other than Role-Playing, the limiting factor in how many spells a Wizard can have in their spellbook is money. I thought about requiring Wizards to pay for scrolls of the spells that they want to scribe into their books as well, but that would be just too harsh. Plus it doesn't take into account that they may have traded spells with friends or colleagues or found other spellbooks to copy spells out of. So I just went with the strait scribing cost.

I am not sure if I will allow it in higher level matches or not, but for now it is probably best to leave it out of play.

[The Hive Custodian]

Yet more questions:

What actions, exactly, are allowed during the first two rounds of combat?
Are non-spellcasting actions allowed during the first round?
Are characters permitted to move during the first two rounds?
Specifically, what actions are allowed/prohibited during the second round? Could a character ready an action to do something other than counterspell? Could a character refocus?
What is the floor of the arena made out of? Does the arena have a ceiling, and if so, what is it made out of? Are the edges of the arena physically walled off, and if so, how high are the walls and what are they made out of?
What happens if a character is forced out of the arena and is unable to return (but is not incapcitated)?
When a character returns to the arena, must they do so in a straight line toward the center of the arena to avoid disqualification?
Are familiars permitted to leave the arena?
Will the state of the arena itself be reset after each match? For example, if transmute rock to mud was cast on the floor of the arena during a match, will the floor be returned to its original state by the next match?
If a character leaves the arena due to the effects of a mind-affecting effect (e.g., fear), are they disqualified?
Are the archmages all-powerful?Sad thing is, I'm probably not going to be in this... I just felt like being nit-picky.

[nightinverse]

I personally think that any arena changes should remain in effect for flavor.

[Chris Chandler]

The 15th - good that gives me enough time to prepare. I'll get cracking!

[random_person_number_873]

I posted in the sign-up thread, so I didn't know if anyone saw it, but I'm in as well. If I can get 2 characters posted before Wednesday then I'll run 2, but if not, oh well. Should we post spells known as well, or just pm you those too to keep the suspense?

[Boomlaor]

I should have time to finish up my entry tonight, hopefully I'll have him posted by tommorrow.

[Lord Twig]

Yet more questions:

What actions, exactly, are allowed during the first two rounds of combat?
Are non-spellcasting actions allowed during the first round?
Are characters permitted to move during the first two rounds?
Specifically, what actions are allowed/prohibited during the second round? Could a character ready an action to do something other than counterspell? Could a character refocus?
What is the floor of the arena made out of? Does the arena have a ceiling, and if so, what is it made out of? Are the edges of the arena physically walled off, and if so, how high are the walls and what are they made out of?
What happens if a character is forced out of the arena and is unable to return (but is not incapcitated)?
When a character returns to the arena, must they do so in a straight line toward the center of the arena to avoid disqualification?
Are familiars permitted to leave the arena?
Will the state of the arena itself be reset after each match? For example, if transmute rock to mud was cast on the floor of the arena during a match, will the floor be returned to its original state by the next match?
If a character leaves the arena due to the effects of a mind-affecting effect (e.g., fear), are they disqualified?
Are the archmages all-powerful?Sad thing is, I'm probably not going to be in this... I just felt like being nit-picky.
As Black Plauge has said before (can't remember exactly where), not all rulings need to be made in advance, but I will try to answer any questions posed.

1. The actions allowed are exactly what is listed, you may cast a spells that only target yourself and your familiar in the first round and can prepare to counterspell in the second. No other action is permitted, including moving or refocusing. Think of it as a kind of "Ready, Set, Go!" sequence.
2. The arena is open to the sky and the ground is dirt around the circle and grass in the circle. The grass is short and will not catch fire, though there is a good chance it will get scorched. :)
3. The purpose of the tournament is to knock out your opponent, not force him out of the ring. Anything that prevents his returned will have to be either dismissed by his opponent or will be dispelled by the official.
4. Not necessarily a strait line, as long as they return to the circle in one round they could enter form any desired point. If they could return, but instead choose to walk around the circle and not reenter they would be disqualified.
5. No. Familiars must abide by the same rules as the duelists themselves.
6. Yes, the arena will be put back in order after each match. This is to keep the competitions balanced. If someone in a previous match casts Wall of Stone, it wouldn't be fair to require all future duelists to have to deal with it.
7. No. If a duelist leaves the circle due to fear or some other spell effect they will be considered to have been forced out. The caster of the fear will be asked to dismiss the spell and allow their opponent to return to the circle.
8. No, the archmages are not all powerful, but they are fairly high level. I was thinking around 15th. I will draw up the archmages stats before the start of the duels, but I will not share what he has available. ;)

[Lord Twig]

I posted in the sign-up thread, so I didn't know if anyone saw it, but I'm in as well. If I can get 2 characters posted before Wednesday then I'll run 2, but if not, oh well. Should we post spells known as well, or just pm you those too to keep the suspense?

Post spells known with your character. The only thing kept secret will be the spells that you actually have prepared. I want to keep most everything visible for the audience as that is more interesting for them and it is easier for me as well. This also allows everyone to check the other characters for errors that I might have missed.

I am looking forward to seeing what everyone comes up with! So go ahead and post your characters!

[generaljimX]

I will be posting my first entry in a couple of hours. I get out of school at 11:30 today, and he's already a third done. Still don't know what to use as a familar. Meh.

On another note, I'm a bit unclear on just exactly how silent image and the like work. I realize that with silent image there is no sound, smell, etc. Its the effect that confuses me. The way I DO interpret it is with silent image I can make some kind of figment, up to the size of something like a troll. Or even a 10X10 gelatinous cube. Is this correct, or can I make something bigger? When I say bigger here I mean taller and/or wider.

[Lord Twig]

I will be posting my first entry in a couple of hours. I get out of school at 11:30 today, and he's already a third done. Still don't know what to use as a familar. Meh.

On another note, I'm a bit unclear on just exactly how silent image and the like work. I realize that with silent image there is no sound, smell, etc. Its the effect that confuses me. The way I DO interpret it is with silent image I can make some kind of figment, up to the size of something like a troll. Or even a 10X10 gelatinous cube. Is this correct, or can I make something bigger? When I say bigger here I mean taller and/or wider.

Silent Image

Illusion (Figment)
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect: Visual figment that cannot extend beyond four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level (S)
Duration: Concentration
Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with)
Spell Resistance: No This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. The illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature. You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect.
Focus: A bit of fleece.

So at 9th level you could create an image that is 10' deep, 130' wide and 10' high. Or 20' deep, 20' wide and 30' high. So you can make some pretty massive illusions with Silent Image.

[generaljimX]

Ooooook. I get it now. And as long as the image stays the same size and within range, I can make it move(i.e. walk around), right?

[Lord Twig]

Yes, but keep in mind that the duration is "Concentration" so you will not be able to do anything except Move Actions while the spell is in effect.

[generaljimX]

I realize that. Something else that I just realized that would make the spell a waste-the judges/comentators are calling out the spells as they see them. Now, if they're just giving descriptions like "that was one ball of fire. it seemed to really hurt Bob" than its no big thing. But, if they're actually saying "well, Jim just cast silent image, and Bob fell for it" its not worth the spellbook space/preparing.

[Lord Twig]

The commentators would call out that it was an illusion, but your opponent would probably know that anyway. He would get a Spellcraft check to identify the spell as it is cast. Assuming a standard wizard with an 18 Int, he would have +16 to his roll and would only need to make a DC16 check to identify the spell. The check would be automatic, even a 1 wouldn't fail.

That said, he would still see the illusion. So if you made an illusion of a wall he would see the wall and would not be able to see anything behind it. He would have to interact with the wall in some way in order to get his save. Then if he failed his save, he would still see the wall, though he could just step strait through it.

If you made an illusion of a troll or red dragon, he would see it, but would just ignore it because he would know that you cast an illusion.

[Flagg Thornington]

Lord twig, I have my charater ready to go. Do you have an email address I can send it to for pre-posting perusal? If everyone sends their sheet to you before anyone posts their characters up, it will prevent last minute changes made solely to counter some other mages strengths/weaknesses.
Once you've seen them all tell everyone to post 'em up.

[Lord Twig]

I have sent you a private message with my email address. You can email me the character or send it as a private message.

[Black Plauge]

I stongly recommend against that. Character entries should be posted publicly to give spectators and a competitors to catch problems. You can't expect the DM to catch all mistakes.

[Lord Twig]

I stongly recommend against that. Character entries should be posted publicly to give spectators and a competitors to catch problems. You can't expect the DM to catch all mistakes.

Actually I agree. But I was thinking that if people really insisted they could send it to me early so I could take a look at it and then they could post it up just before the deadline so that others get a chance to go over the characters as well. Characters are due by the 15th, but the duels won't start until the 20th to give everyone time to go over the characters.

Also, I may extend the deadline for characters if we have less than 8 by the 15th.

[generaljimX]

BP knows a little about this. He DID just run the gladiator tourny. When it first started, if I recall correctly, all characters were posted publicly. It didn't change any stratagies, but instead put the entry up for peer reveiw. It worked out just fine then, and I don't see why it wouldn't work here.

As a side note, spell selection took me longer than expected, but the character should be up shortly.

EDIT: Wow. Just a minute behind Lord Twig.

[Flagg Thornington]

I also agree that they should be made public for mass critique, but this game in particular is a competition/tournament. I guess it really doesn't matter, after all the winner has to run the next tournament...

[treehouse]

Meh, I'm just in it for fun. If I win, that's great, but it's nothing to cheat over. I'm sure everyone else feels the same way. And it's more important to get the sheets up for peer review than to ward the competition against spoil sports who may not exist.

I'll try to have my character posted tomorrow.

Lord Twig - what's your policy on Wu Jen spells from the Spell Compendium? Wu Jen is not a default supported class in the book, yet they share much of the same spell list that sorcerers and wizards get. Is there any crossover, or do I just stick with the list in Complete Arcane? I'm fine with either option.

[treehouse]

Never mind about the wu jen...I've decided to try out something else.

Edit: I guess since we are allowed to enter two I will enter two, because I have two fun concepts in mind. One is a straight wu jen. The other is a necromancer/blood magus...We'll see how it goes.

[Canadian]

I'm so in on this :) My character will be posted either late tonight or first thing tomorrow. But I do have a few questions:

Do you require corpses for us to cast Animate Dead? Some GM's do, some just assume the spell brings them up from the earth to you during the casting.

On the first round only spells that target the caster and only the caster may be cast. The spell may be shared with the caster's familiar. Spell casting is the only action that may be performed in the first round.

Are we allowed to enter the field with spells cast on ourselves? Or do all self-targetted spells have to be cast on the first round?


Thanks :)

[Lord Twig]

Yes, you would need corpses to cast Animate Dead. The target of the spell is "One or more corpses touched", so if you don't have any corpses you wouldn't be able to cast the spell. The spell Summon Undead would create undead instantly, but it functions similar to a Summon Monster spell.

I would also say that you could not bring in already animated corpses. It is just yourself and your familiar.

You can cast as many spells as you want on yourself one hour before the duel begins. So any spell that lasts longer than one hour may be cast in advance.

[Black Plauge]

I also agree that they should be made public for mass critique, but this game in particular is a competition/tournament. I guess it really doesn't matter, after all the winner has to run the next tournament...

Well, past patterns not withstanding, the winner doesn't have to run the next tournament.

Not saying they can't. I just don't want anyone to be discouraged from entering by that thought.

[Black Plauge]

I personally think that any arena changes should remain in effect for flavor.

Problem is that for OOC management purposes several duels will be run simultaneously even though IC they are taking place sequentially.

[random_person_number_873]

This is completely off topic, but I just wanted to say that I like your signature Plague.

[Darken]

Lord Twig, are the rules enforced OOC, or IC? That is, are the rules enforced in-game by the Archmage, or enforced by the DM on a metagame level as well? Specifically, if I am to create a character within the creation guideline that can surpass the level 15 Archmage in question, can I break rules?

[treehouse]

Lord Twig, are the rules enforced OOC, or IC? That is, are the rules enforced in-game by the Archmage, or enforced by the DM on a metagame level as well? Specifically, if I am to create a character within the creation guideline that can surpass the level 15 Archmage in question, can I break rules?


Uh oh...

Hey, Lord Twig - I'm not going to be able to get a character up for this by Wednesday. I got hit by an unfortunate deluge of Real Life on Monday, and I highly expect things to continue being busy at home until this weekend. So I'll be spectating this time around....

[Lord Twig]

Darken, that is a fair question and I am a little split on the decision. I think for ease of play that I will enforce the rules OoC as well.

Out of curiosity, how did you intend to cheat? I am at a loss for what you might be able to do.

A note on counterspells. In order to counter a spell you have to make a spellcraft check. In order to make a spellcraft check you have to be able to see or hear the spell being cast. So a spell that is silent, still and has no material components can not be counterspelled.

With that in mind, if the archmage sees a spell suddenly appear on someone and he was not able to counter it, he will cast greater dispel magic to dispel it. If it was an attack spell that was cast in the first two rounds, the match would be stopped until the damage could be healed and then the match would start over from the beginning. With a warning to the cheater that he will be disqualified if he does that again. Of course if there is an attack spell before the match begins the caster will be arrested and hauled away to jail.

Hmmm... I think that I will add to the main rules that if you are caught cheating you will first get a warning, if you get caught a second time you will be disqualified.

Edit: When I say that the rules will be enforced OoC as well, I don't mean that I will force characters to not cheat. It is just that the officials will have a near omniscient and omnipotent ability to detect and counter illegal actions. I will try to give an in character reason for it, but however it is done, the cheating won't be allowed. As with any of my rulings if you disagree let me know and we can discuss it. If all of the players want to allow cheating if you can get away with it, I am open to the possibility.

[Lord Twig]

Treehouse, since I only have two characters entered so far, I will most likely extend the deadline for characters. I would like to have at least eight to start.

Flagg Thornington has emailed me his character so that would make three as soon as he posts it here. If others would like to send me an advanced copy of their characters before the game they can send me a private message. But once the deadline for characters is reached and we have at least eight entrants I will need to have you post them up here for the review period.

[Darken]

I am just wondering on the rule application. Since it's always interesting to see characters attempting to swing with illegal activities inside a structured competetion. I am not trying to mess with your tournment at all, I am just curious about the possibilities, that from an in-game point of view, that allows characters to cheat. In addition, what would happen if the character in the match somehow disables the Archmage and/or his preceptions and judgements?

Should the deadline be extended I will reconsider my options; however, if not, I can always enter the character that was voted out of the gladiator tournment because he was too magic-oriented.

[treehouse]

Well, I might have time to create something for it, but it all really depends on how things go tonight. We (we being my wife and me) are trying to get our essays done BEFORE vacation, so I haven't had time to even crack the Complete Arcane open. Chances are I'll be able to finish at least the Blood Magus pretty soon, though.

[Lord Twig]

Another rule that I just thought of that I will add to the main rules.

You will not be allowed to have any spells cast by someone else active on you before the match starts. So no paying for spells, permanent or otherwise.

The in-game protection against this will be that any long duration spells cast on you must be witnessed by a duel official. If they didn't see you cast it yourself, you can't have it on you and they will dispel it.

[Lord Twig]

I am just wondering on the rule application. Since it's always interesting to see characters attempting to swing with illegal activities inside a structured competetion. I am not trying to mess with your tournment at all, I am just curious about the possibilities, that from an in-game point of view, that allows characters to cheat. In addition, what would happen if the character in the match somehow disables the Archmage and/or his preceptions and judgements?

Should the deadline be extended I will reconsider my options; however, if not, I can always enter the character that was voted out of the gladiator tournment because he was too magic-oriented.

I am curious myself. That is why I was split on the decision. As I said, if everyone wants to allow for in-game cheating, I will go with that. Your question has caused by to think a little more about the reasonable precautions that the duel officials would take to prevent cheating, as I am sure they would have dealt with cheating in the past.

As for the deadline, I really just put it out there to get people working on their characters. With only two (or three) characters so far, I will go ahead and extend the deadline. Any suggestions on how much time I should give? Would having the weekend to work on characters be helpful?

[treehouse]

Weekend would be very helpful. I'd definitely have something in by then.

[Black Plauge]

I've just about finished with one character. Give me the weekend and I'll have two.

[Lord Twig]

Okay, the new deadline will be that characters need to be submitted by Sunday midnight. We can spend the following week reviewing characters and I will post the first duels the following weekend. So the first actions will be due Monday.

Something like that. I will not split hairs on exact times.

[generaljimX]

With the deadline moved up, I may just get another character in. Depends on how much work I feel like doing before Friday....

[random_person_number_873]

That sounds great. I'll have enough time to get another character written up by then. Thanks.

[Flagg Thornington]

I should also be able to add a second character.

[Boomlaor]

can you throw thunderstones with a sling?

[Lord Twig]

can you throw thunderstones with a sling?

Looking at thunderstones they weigh 1lb. So I am going to say no. Of course sling bullets are 1/2lb which is heavier than I thought they would be, but still significantly less than a thunderstone.

I'll be honest. If it gets to the point where the duelist are out of spells and are resorting to weapons, I will be very surprised.

[Canadian]

Aww, haven't you ever heard of a keen greater magic weapon enchanted sling with fire burst bullets being used by a hasted halfling with cats grace? :D

I'm going to put up one more char, hopefully tonight :)

[nightinverse]

Aww, haven't you ever heard of a keen greater magic weapon enchanted sling with fire burst bullets being used by a hasted halfling with cats grace? :D

I'm going to put up one more char, hopefully tonight :)

That is precisely why I stopped playing D&D f2f.

[Lord Twig]

I want to give people an idea of how I will start the duels. So here is how it will work.

I will post up all matches and the announcers will ask the duelist to introduce themselves.

Players will post a brief message of introduction. This will be entirely for role-playing but will also let us know that you are still around and active.

Players will then send me a private message with the spells they have prepared and the spell (or spells) that they will cast on the first round of the duel.

I will then roll initiative and post the results of the first two rounds of the duel. Specifically what spells were cast in the first round and that they have both readied to counterspell the other.

Then the player who won initiative will be required to post his action in the next 24 hours.

Questions? Comments?

[Black Plauge]

Can a duelist elect not to ready an action to counterspell by not taking any action during their turn on the second round?

[Canadian]

Agreed. What if I just want to go Full Defense to boost my AC until it's my turn to cast a spell?

Or can we set conditional counterspells sicne we know what each person will be casting? (i.e. if Player X casts Fireball or Lightning bolt, then I will try to counterspell. All other spells I do nothing).

My main concern is that we are going to be automatically trying to counter a spell like Bull's Strength, why would I do that?

Otherwise the person with the initiative just has to cast some junk spells in the first few rounds to make their opponent waste valuable spell slots. This would give sorcerers a huge upper hand since they have more slots/day available.

[Darius]

Can't you ready an action to counter offensive spells in particular?

[Lord Twig]

We can discuss other actions that might be allowed on the second round, but here are a few things that I absolutely want to avoid.

No preparing an action to cast a spell to interrupt the other caster. We would end up with both casters sitting there waiting for the other to cast. Or if the caster who lost initiative did this they would actually end up going first.

Likewise I don't want to allow the refocus action. Basically it would just become a contest of who could go first.

If you wanted to use Full Defense I wouldn't see that as a problem, but it won't help you against most spells.

As for counterspelling, I have been thinking about that and have come to the conclusion that I may need to check with the defensive duelist to see if and how he wants to counterspell. Canadian is absolutely right in that there are spells that you wouldn't want to counterspell. If you have a Shield spell up and your opponent fires off a Quickened Magic Missile, you certainly wouldn't want to counter it. Especially since it is an obvious attempt to get you to waste your counterspell before the big guns come out.

[Lord Twig]

Can't you ready an action to counter offensive spells in particular?

Technically when you are ready to counterspell it works like this. Your opponent starts to cast a spell. You make a Spellcraft check to identify what he is casting. If you succeed you then have the option to counterspell it or not and if you do, what you want to counterspell it with. This is why I am saying that it may be necessary for me to find out from the counterspeller what they want to do before I resolve the action.

[Black Plauge]

Canadian is absolutely right in that there are spells that you wouldn't want to counterspell. If you have a Shield spell up and your opponent fires off a Quickened Magic Missile, you certainly wouldn't want to counter it. Especially since it is an obvious attempt to get you to waste your counterspell before the big guns come out.

Actually, one could still counterspell the next spell. Since the couterspell is a readied action, the counterspeller would go first in the next round. Thus allowing them to ready to counterspell again if they wanted to.

So the action would be like this:
Round 2:
Player 1 readies to counterspell.
Player 2 readies to counterspell.
Round 3:
Player 1 casts a spell, triggering Player 2's readied action.
Player 2 attempts to counter Player 1's spell. If the attempt fails, Player 1 casts his spell, if it succeeds, Player 1 loses his spell. Either way Player 1's turn is over (except, possibly, for a move after the spell).
Round 4:
Player 2 gets to act.


Remember, a triggered ready action resets your iniative to be just before the action of the player that triggered it.

My concern is with stuff like magic missile agianst a shield or brooch of sheilding, a firball against energy immunity (fire) or really high energy resistance, and other situations where the chance of the spell doing any signifigant harm is so small (or non existant) that to attempt to counter it is a waste of one's own resources (be that one's own preperation of the spell or a dispel magic).

[Boomlaor]

Re: second round casting

What about casting a spell which takes a full round to cast (e.g. summon monster)? It wouldn't complete 'till round 3.

[Canadian]

Well what if I don't want to use counterspell in the opening round?

IE:

Round2:
PlayerX readies to counterspell
Canadian assumes Full Defense

Round3:
PlayerX casts fireball. 10 damage to Canadian for failing his reflex save.
Canadian passes concentration check to cast while taking damage. Canadian casts Summon Monster IV and places the creature(s) next to PlayerX.

Round4:
Summoned creatures arrive and attack PlayerX
PlayerX passes concentration check, casts Dispel Magic to unsummon the monsters.
Canadian casts Quickened Magic Missile and Slow at PlayerX.

And so on.

Why should I have to use a counterspell? I didn't build my character to sit there taking turns exchanging blows with another caster. I built him to cast spells while his opponent casts spells at the same time. If my opponent wants to stand by while I'm casting spells so they can counter then go ahead, but I sure don't expect to be doing that.

[Canadian]

Re: second round casting

What about casting a spell which takes a full round to cast (e.g. summon monster)? It wouldn't complete 'till round 3.

I second that question. And if that's allowed, then I'm dropping one of my feats for the Delay Spell metamagic feat :nod:

[Lord Twig]

Black Plauge: My example was countering a quickened magic missile. After that was counterspelled the caster could then follow up with a 5th level spell as a standard action on the same round and before his opponent could ready another action.

Boomlaor: No, you can't start casting a spell on the 2nd round just like you can't prepare an action to cast a spell.

Think of it this way. When the duel begins you have six seconds to cast a spell. Then you have six seconds to prepare (a readied action to counterspell). So if seven seconds after the duel starts you start casting a spell, the archmage will counter it immediately, he won't wait to see if it comes in after the twelve second start time.

[Lord Twig]

Canadian: You absolutely will not be forced to counterspell if you don't want to. The reason for the 2nd round counterspell action is to give the duelist who loses initiative an extra chance to avoid a one-spell-kill besides just a saving throw.

Really, whoever wins initiative doesn't have to prepare to do anything. He is going to go first on the 3rd round anyway. It is just tradition that he prepare to counterspell, whether he is going to use it or not.

You can check in Complete: Arcane on page 175 for the rules of the Spell Duel that this contest is based on.

[Lord Twig]

Well what if I don't want to use counterspell in the opening round?

IE:

Round2:
PlayerX readies to counterspell
Canadian assumes Full Defense

Round3:
PlayerX casts fireball. 10 damage to Canadian for failing his reflex save.
Canadian passes concentration check to cast while taking damage. Canadian casts Summon Monster IV and places the creature(s) next to PlayerX.

Round4:
Summoned creatures arrive and attack PlayerX
PlayerX passes concentration check, casts Dispel Magic to unsummon the monsters.
Canadian casts Quickened Magic Missile and Slow at PlayerX.

And so on.

Why should I have to use a counterspell? I didn't build my character to sit there taking turns exchanging blows with another caster. I built him to cast spells while his opponent casts spells at the same time. If my opponent wants to stand by while I'm casting spells so they can counter then go ahead, but I sure don't expect to be doing that.

You are a little off on the timing of things above. Here is how it would actually play out.

Round2:
PlayerX readies to counterspell
Canadian assumes Full Defense

Round3:
PlayerX casts fireball. 10 damage to Canadian for failing his reflex save. (Damage would actually average 31.5 points of damage on a failed save, but that's not really important here.)
Canadian begins casting Summon Monster IV. There is no need for a concentration check.

Round4:
PlayerX casts a spell, let's say Magic Missile, and damages Canadian for another 10 damage. (Actual average damage would be 17.5.)
Canadian, if he is still up, makes a concentration check to keep his Summon Monster IV spell. Assuming he passes the creature appears next to PlayerX.
Canadian's turn the monster attacks PlayerX and Canadian casts Quickened Magic Missile and Slow at PlayerX.

Now, you could have added a counterspell to stop the fireball and still be able to do all of the other actions that were listed for you in the exact same order.

It would look like this:

Round2:
PlayerX readies to counterspell
Canadian readies to counterspell

Round3:
PlayerX casts fireball.
Canadian's action is triggered and the fireball is countered (assuming you make all the rolls). Canadian's initiative is now set to just before PlayerX.

Round4:
Canadian begins to cast Summon Monster IV.
PlayerX casts Magic Missile and damages Canadian for 10 damage. Canadian, makes a concentration check to keep his Summon Monster IV spell.

Round5:
Canadian's monster appears.
Canadian's turn the monster attacks PlayerX and Canadian casts Quickened Magic Missile and Slow at PlayerX.
PlayerX, (if he is still up) can now cast something else.

And on it would go.

[random_person_number_873]

This may sound like a stupid question, but I haven't played many spell casters and don't know all the rules for spell casting. What is the DC for the saves on spells? It's spellcasting level + ??. And I once again apologize for my ignorance.

[Darius]

DC=10+spell level+modifying attribute bonus

[Darken]

Can you cast Touch spells in the first round? Touch spells don't target anything, that just create a charge; can I choose to cast a Touch spell in the first round (not touching anyone, of course, as it's definitely out of reach and against the rules) and just hold the charge, then charge in to deliver the charge (or have familiar do so) in the 3rd round, thus negating the possibility of the spell being countered in the 2nd round?

[random_person_number_873]

LT: would there possibly be any exceptions to allow a divine spell caster as an Entropomancer in the tourney? I really wanna try one out.

[Lord Twig]

Darken: No, I am going to stick with the targeting yourself spells. You could of course target yourself with a touch spell. The purpose of the 1st round is to give you a chance to get at least one short duration defensive spell up.

Random: No, arcane casters only this time around.

[Boomlaor]

is it possible to scribe a scroll with a metamagic feat applied? If so, how much extra does it cost?

[Black Plauge]

Yes. Use the metamagic adjusted level to compute the cost, otherwise the cost calculation is the same.

[Boomlaor]

I had what I thought was a great idea, but I want to make sure i'm not overcomplicating things. Reading a scroll normally is a standard action. If I scribe a quickened scroll, is reading it still a standard action or is it a free action?

[Lord Twig]

Activating a scroll is a standard action by itself. So a quickened scroll would not be worthwhile. It makes me wonder about spells with longer casting times however.

[Boomlaor]

would it be possible to deliver touch spells with a shuriken of spellstoring? And if so, I assume that the shuriken would be recoverable between rounds?

[Lord Twig]

Boomlaor: Sorry I didn't answer your question sooner.

Since shuriken count as ammunition they would be destroyed after they hit their target, and might be destroyed even if they miss. Fifty +1 spell storing shurikens would cost 8310gp. I couldn't find any rules on this, but I will rule that all 50 shuriken can store a total of one spell. You could not store 50 spells, one in each shuriken. After the spell is expended by a shuriken that hit, all other shurikens would be just +1 until you could cast another spell into them. Also, you would have to buy all 50 shurikens and spend the full 8310gp. This goes with the rule that all charged items must be purchased with full charges.

[Boomlaor]

One last question then, would 50 shuriken as described for 8310gp violate the 5000gp cap on expendibles rule? If so I'll change back to the kama.

[Black Plauge]

The signup thread has been cleaned and locked. All deleted posts are recoverable, so let me know if you need something from one of those posts.

I think you should still be able to edit your posts in the sign-up if you want to add images. If you can't, let me know and I'll re-open it so that you can do so.

[Boomlaor]

Nope, no more edit button.

[Lord Twig]

One last question then, would 50 shuriken as described for 8310gp violate the 5000gp cap on expendibles rule? If so I'll change back to the kama.

No, the 5,000gp cap was for one-use items. Since this has basically 50 uses it will fall into the same category as wands. So as long as it is under 10,000gp you are ok.

It is probably good that you can not edit the entries as they should not change during the game. Adding pictures would be fine though.

[Black Plauge]

I'll reopen it for pictures and then close it again when the matches start.

[Boomlaor]

Just got a copy of complete arcane, so I swapped out a couple spells for Frizznik (was strictly SRD before). I'll change them back if I need to since this is at the last second (obviously couldn't change them during the tourney.)

[Flagg Thornington]

So how do we determine character position in terms of three-dimensional movement, for example Flying?

[Lord Twig]

Boomlaor: I will allow it since you got it in before the matches actually started.

Flagg: If there is flying I will note the character's height next to his marker.

[Lord Twig]

I have modified the rules to reflect that you may take the total defense action on the second round instead of readying a counterspell. I have also added a line to reinforce the no-movement rule during the first two rounds.

[Boomlaor]

The rules clearly state that a duelist may not leave the circle. May summoned creatures do so?

[Lord Twig]

No, summon creatures should not leave the circle either. I will put that in the rules.

[Boomlaor]

Man, I keep coming up with questions, sure am learning alot though, thanks for bearing with me! Can you substitute the celestial template for the fiendish template in a summon monster spell, or are you limited to exactly what the monsters on the list are? Oh, and are there limitations on what template a character summon (i.e. can a good character summon fiendish monsters)?

[generaljimX]

Lord Twig, I have a question, yet again, about summon undead II. What is the casting time? If it is 1 round like all other summon spells, Casandrella would only have a partial action left in Round 4. I don't know what persistent blade or summon undead's casting times, so......ugh....yeah....

[Black Plauge]

Man, I keep coming up with questions, sure am learning alot though, thanks for bearing with me! Can you substitute the celestial template for the fiendish template in a summon monster spell, or are you limited to exactly what the monsters on the list are? Oh, and are there limitations on what template a character summon (i.e. can a good character summon fiendish monsters)?

The Summon Monster lists are fixed as printed. You can make substitutions to the list according to fairly specific rules (which were outlined in the Planar Handbook) but said substitutions have to be done when a character first gets access to the appropriate list (in this case at character creation) and cannot be changed later.

For arcane casters, there are no alignment restrictions on summon spells. Only divine casters have to deal with those.

[Black Plauge]

Lord Twig, I have a question, yet again, about summon undead II. What is the casting time? If it is 1 round like all other summon spells, Casandrella would only have a partial action left in Round 4. I don't know what persistent blade or summon undead's casting times, so......ugh....yeah....

Casting time is 1 round. Given Casandrella's movement in Round 1, she must have spent a standard action to start casting the spell in round 1 and spent a standard action to finish casting the spell in round 2.

I don't know the casting time on persistant blade, but in order for her to cast it in round 2 it has to be a swift action.

[generaljimX]

Casting time is 1 round. Given Casandrella's movement in Round 1, she must have spent a standard action to start casting the spell in round 1 and spent a standard action to finish casting the spell in round 2.

I don't know the casting time on persistant blade, but in order for her to cast it in round 2 it has to be a swift action.

BP, you said it sooo much better than I did. It could have been because I was being yelled at to get off the computer at the time, but you never know. I just could be a bad communicator(I can't spell either).

[Flagg Thornington]

To clarify, Casandrella only took a five foot step during her full round casting of summon undead II.

[generaljimX]

That does clear things up a bit. Now I have to worry about the kind of action persistent blade is......Ah, doesn't matter. Rasca didn't get a chance to spellcraft because it was silent. I just realized, however, that the annoucers did annouce it......Man this is going to keep me up all night, now......

[Lord Twig]

Looks like all of the questions were answered. :)

For ease of play the announcers will continue to tell the audience, and the opposing duelist, what spells are being cast, even if you wouldn't normally know. This was listed in the rules from the beginning. I really would like to do as little as possible through private messages.

During the gladiator tournament invisible contestants posted their moves publicly and trusted their opponents to play fair. I would have liked to do the same, but with area spells being so common I felt it would be easier for everyone to use the private messages.

[Black Plauge]

I'd like to make a suggestion that Lord Twig distinguish between a move and step when he posts actions. I made sure to do that in the Gladiator Tournament just to avoid the kind of confusion that we just had. 5' steps were always called "steps" while anything further was called a move.

[Boomlaor]

Assuming a ground-based creature can reach a flying creature, is there a mechanism by which the flying creature can be pulled to the ground? It seems that either a bullrush check or a grapple check would make sense, but I can't find any specific rules on it. Thanks in advance.

[Lord Twig]

BP: A lot of the confusion came because Casandrella was invisible. If I had said she had taken a 5' step, Rasca would have known within a space or two of where she was and would have been able to drop his stinking cloud right on her. That would have been more information than he should have received from a listen check. I am hoping that invisibility will be less of an issue in future duels, just for the ease of running them.

Boomlaor: Probably a trip would be the best mechanism if you want to throw a flyer to the ground.

Grapple would work as well if you wanted to keep a hold of the flyer. With a successful grapple you move into your opponents space, which would be up in the air. In all likelyhood this would be far too heavy for the flyer to carry and you would both end up on the ground.