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The Hive Custodian
28th of February, 2006, 16:50
The new interchangability of abilities means that the interaction between Improved Uncanny Dodge and Sneak Attack cannot refer to rogue levels any longer. I have changed it to refer to total levels.

I tried to balance this to the standard rogue; according to the Class Design Rules I posted, it's about 2 CP behind the monk and ranger. I'm not sure if this is a sizable enough difference to get worried over. Certainly no class can match its skills, so even if the CDR is right and it is indeed weaker, it still has the benefit of having a niche.

Professional (replaces rogue)

Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d6.
Skill Base: 8.
Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), Use Rope (Dex).

Base Attack Bonus: +3/4 per level (as cleric).
Good Saves (2 + 1/2 per level): Reflex.
Poor Saves (1/3 per level): Fortitude, Will.
Armor and Weapon Proficiency: Simple weapons, hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, short sword, light armor.

Class Features:

Trapfinding: A professional gains Trapfinding as a bonus feat.

Professional's Savvy: At 1st level and every two levels thereafter (3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th level), the professional gains a Professional's Savvy ability. See Professional's Savvy Abilities, below.

Professional's Knack: At 2nd level and every four levels thereafter (6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level), the professional gains a Professional's Knack ability. See Professional's Knack Abilities, below.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A professional of at least 2nd level can react to danger before their senses would normally allow them to do so. They retain their Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if they are caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, they still lose their Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If the professional already has the Uncanny Dodge from a different class, they gain the Improved Uncanny Dodge (see below) ability instead.

Trap Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, a professional gains an intuitive sense that alerts them to danger from traps, giving them a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses increase by 1 every three levels thereafter (at 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level).
Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack.

Professional's Moxie: At 4th level and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level), the professional gains a Professional's Moxie ability. See Professional's Moxie Abilities, below.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A professional of at least 6th level can no longer be flanked.
This defense denies an opponent the ability to sneak attack the professional by flanking them, unless the attacker is at least four levels higher than the professional.

Professional's Knack Abilities
Okay, to be perfectly honest this didn't exist in the original rogue. Go Sleight of Hand some abilities from another class. Or make up your own.

Professional's Savvy Abilities
Bonus Feat: The professional gains a bonus feat.

Sneak Attack (Ex): If the professional can catch an opponent when they are unable to defend themselves effectively from the professionals attack, they can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The professional's attack deals 1d6 points of extra damage any time their target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the professional flanks their target. Should the professional score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.
Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a professional can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. They cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
A professional can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The professional must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A professional cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.
This ability can be selected multiple times. Each time it is selected, the sneak attack damage increases by 1d6.

Professional's Moxie Abilities

Crippling Strike (Ex): Minimum professional level 12th, requires Sneak Attack. The professional can sneak attack opponents with such precision that their blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of their sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Strength damage. Ability points lost to damage return on their own at the rate of 1 point per day for each damaged ability.

Defensive Roll (Ex): The professional can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than they otherwise would. Once per day, when they would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), the professional can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the professional must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, they take only half damage from the blow; if it fails, they take full damage. They must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute their defensive roll—if they are denied their Dexterity bonus to AC, they can’t use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll.

Evasion (Ex): The professional can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If they make a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, they instead take no damage. Evasion can be used only if the professional is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless professional does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Improved Evasion (Ex): This ability works like evasion, except that while the professional still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth they take only half damage on a failed save. A helpless professional does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.Opportunist (Ex): Minimum professional level 8th. Once per round, the professional can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as the rogue’s attack of opportunity for that round. Even a professional with the Combat Reflexes feat can’t use the opportunist ability more than once per round.

Skill Mastery: The professional becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that they use them reliably even under adverse conditions.
Upon gaining this ability, they select a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, they may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent them from doing so. A professional may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for it to apply to each time.

Slippery Mind (Ex): This ability represents the professional's ability to wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel them. If a the professional is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails their saving throw, they can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. They get only this one extra chance to succeed on their saving throw.

Exchange Notes
The professional's Trap Sense ability is considered a Medium ability.
The professional's Uncanny Dodge abilities are considered a 2 EP ability.
Professional's Knack abilities are considered Minor abilities.
Professional's Savvy abilities are considered Medium abilities.
Professional's Moxie abilties are considered Major abilities.

With the DM's permission, an ability can be exchanged for an ability of equivalent type from another class.

TRAPFINDING [GENERAL]
Benefit: You can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20.
Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.
Additionally, you can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.
If you beat a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check, you can study the trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with your party) without disarming it.
Normal: If you do not have this feat, you cannot locate traps with a Search check when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20 or disarm magic traps.

nightinverse
1st of March, 2006, 09:29
Totally horrible... it's good, it's balanced, but it isn't Rogue. Not to say I don't like it... but you're creating an alternate SRD here.

Daedalus
1st of March, 2006, 16:53
So... I was sitting around, and thought about how it would be really cool to have two characters of the same class and have them be almost completely different. This is the foul, Rogue-based offspring of that line of thought. I present to you now: The Thief, who I can almost gaurantee is not like the AD&D thief very much.

Alignment: Any nonlawful
HD: D6
Skill Base: 6
Class skills: as Rogue
BAB: +1/2
Good save: Ref. Poor saves: fort, will.
Simple weapon proficiency, Rapier, Sap, Hand Crossbow, Short Sword
Abilities (May seem very, terribly awesome at first glance, but bear in mind you can only ever have 5 of the first three, three of the fourth, and one of the last):

Pickpocket’s Agility
At first level and every four levels after that (5th, 9th, 13th, 17th), the Thief chooses one ability from the list below:
Sneak Attack: (Prereqs: none) As a Rogue’s Sneak Attack ability. This ability may be taken more than once. Each time, it adds +1d6 to the sneak attack damage.
Uncanny Dodge: (Prereqs: none) You retain your Dex bonus to AC unless you are bound or prone, or otherwise unable to move at all.
Evasion: (Prereqs: none) If an effect would allow you a reflex save for half damage, you take no damage instead on a successful save.
Cat’s Grace: (Prereqs: Thief Level 5) Once per day, you may cast Cat’s Grace on yourself as a Spell-Like ability as a Wizard with a caster level equal to half your Thief levels. This ability may be taken multiple times. Each time it’s taken, you may use it an additional time per day.
Steady Hand: (Prereqs: none) You may add your total Thief levels to any Sleight of Hand check you make.
Slippery: (Prereqs: none) You may add your Thief levels to Escape Artist checks.
Natural Pickpocket: (Prereqs: special) Your maximum possible ranks in the Sleight of Hand skill are increased by 2. You may only take this ability the first time you have access to Pickpocket’s Agility, and never again after that.
Lightning Reflexes: (Prereqs: none) You gain the feat Lightning Reflexes.
Improved Initiative: (Prereqs: none) You gain the feat Improved Initiative.
Haste: (Prereqs: Thief Level 9) You may cast Haste once per day as a Wizard with a caster level equal to half your Thief levels, rounded down, as a Spell-Like Ability. You may take this ability multiple times. Each time, you gain an additional casting per day.

Looter’s Wit
At second level and every four levels after that (6th, 10th, 14th, 18th) the Thief chooses one ability from the list below:
Trapfinding: (Prereqs: none) You may use the Search skill to find traps, as a Rogue.
Padded Foot: (Prereqs: none) You may add your Thief levels to Move Silently checks.
“Practiced”: (Prereqs: none) You may add your Thief levels to Open Lock checks.
Experienced Eye: (Prereqs: none) You may add your Thief levels to Search and Appraise checks.
Paranoid: (Prereqs: none) You may add your Thief levels to Spot and Listen checks.
Invisibility: (Prereqs: Thief Level 6) You may cast Invisibility once per day as a Wizard with a caster level equal to half your Thief levels, rounded down, as a Spell-Like Ability. You may take this ability multiple times. Each time, you gain an additional casting per day.
Open/Close: (Prereqs: none) You may cast Open/Close once per day as a Wizard with a caster level equal to half your Thief levels, rounded down, as a Spell-Like Ability. You may take this ability multiple times. Each time, you gain an additional casting per day.
Detect Secret Doors: (Prereqs: none) You may cast Detect Secret Doors once per day as a Wizard with a caster level equal to half your Thief levels, rounded down, as a Spell-Like Ability. You may take this ability multiple times. Each time, you gain an additional casting per day.
Identify: (Prereqs: none) You may cast Identify once per day as a Wizard with a caster level equal to half your Thief levels, rounded down, as a Spell-Like Ability. You may take this ability multiple times. Each time, you gain an additional casting per day.
Natural Lockpick: (Prereqs: special) Your maximum possible ranks in the Open Lock skill are increased by 2. You may only take this ability the first time you have access to Looter’s Wit, and never again after that.

Conman’s Guile
At third level and every four levels after that (7th, 11th, 15th, 19th) the Thief chooses one ability from the list below:
Honeyed Tongue: (Prereqs: none) You may add your Thief levels to Diplomacy checks.
Silver Tongue: (Prereqs: none) You may add your Thief levels to Bluff checks.
Streetwise: (Prereqs: none) You may add your Thief levels to Gather Information checks.
Liar’s Recognition: (Prereqs: none) You may add your Thief levels to Sense Motive checks.
Fake It: (Prereqs: none) You may add your Thief levels to Profession checks.
Master of Patter: (Prereqs: none) You may add your Thief levels to Perform checks.
Change Self: (Prereqs: none) You may cast Change Self once per day as a Sorcerer with a caster level equal to half your Thief levels, rounded down, as a Spell-Like Ability. You may take this ability multiple times. Each time, you gain an additional casting per day.
Charm Person: (Prereqs: Thief Level 7) You may cast Charm Person once per day as a Sorcerer with a caster level equal to half your Thief levels, rounded down, as a Spell-Like Ability. You may take this ability multiple times. Each time, you gain an additional casting per day.
Suggestion: (Prereqs: Thief Level 11) You may cast Suggestion once per day as a Sorcerer with a caster level equal to half your Thief levels, rounded down, as a Spell-Like Ability. You may take this ability multiple times. Each time, you gain an additional casting per day.
Natural Liar: (Prereqs: special) Your maximum possible ranks in the Bluff skill are increased by 2. You may only take this ability the first time you have access to Conman’s Guile, and never again after that.

Fortune’s Favor
At eighth level and every four levels after that (12th, 16th) the Thief chooses one ability from the list below:
Lucky Find: (Prereqs: none) Whenever you examine a precious object with Appraise (such as a gem or jeweled object), there is a 10% chance that this object is more valuable than it originally appeared (and may even be magical). The nature of this higher value and the actual value of the object are both at the DM’s discretion.
Stroke of Luck (Things): (Prereqs: none) Once per day, as a free action, you may “find” something useful to your situation; You find a rope right next to a building you need to climb, or you find the bone of the previous occupant of the cell you’re in fits the keyhole just right, or you happen to find a couple silver bits lying around just outside the inn you need to pay room and board for. Regardless of how this ability shows, the item it produces can never be worth more than 10 gp. In addition, the DM may override this ability at any time if it conflicts with the story or makes no sense.
Stroke of Luck (Events): (Prereqs: none) Once per day, as a free action, something happens that is useful to your current situation; a barfight throws the guards off your trail as you escape, a building you need to climb has damage in the side in places that are just right for hand and footholds, or a minor fire breaks out that makes everyone in a certain building run for the street, leaving the place ripe for the picking. Regardless of how this ability shows, the result may never kill or seriously hurt anyone, and cannot leave permanent damage. In addition, the DM may override this ability at any time if it conflicts with the story or makes no sense.
Stroke of Luck (People): (Prereqs: none) Once per day, as a free action, someone shows up who is useful to your current situation; A fellow member of your Thieves Guild shows up to bust you out of prison, the innkeeper takes a liking to you and grants you free room and board for the night, or a total stranger offers to hide you until the heat’s off. The person this ability produces can’t be someone of great status or import to the location. Also, bear in mind that using this ability may make you indebted to someone else. In addition, the DM may override this ability at any time if it conflicts with the story or makes no sense.
Hero: (Prereqs: none) Your name, through no will of your own, has become household. You are loved by the poor, and feared by the rich. This ability has no mechanical benefit, but if you can prove you are who you are to those who like your legend, you can be pretty much guaranteed safe haven and free drinks at the local tavern.
Lucky Hit: (Prereqs: Lucky Dodge) once per session, when you make an attack, you hit, regardless of the defender’s AC. Note that this is not a critical hit, just a hit.
Lucky Dodge: (Prereqs: Stroke of Luck (any)) Once per session, if an attack would hit you, that attack misses instead. Note that this is not a critical miss, just a miss.

Master of Theft
At level twenty, choose one of these abilities:
Opportunist: As the Rogue special ability
Skill Mastery: As the Rogue special ability
Charm: Once per session, the Thief may automatically charm any creature, as per the Charm Monster spell. Treat this as a spell-like ability cast as a Sorcerer with a caster level of 20.
Fortune Favors the Bold: Once per session, the next time you would roll a D20 against a DC higher than 30, you succeed.

The Hive Custodian
2nd of March, 2006, 07:36
Hmm. You know, after reading your rogue-ish rendition, I have a theory about why you don't like D&D. Correct me if I'm wrong:

Recall the Kobolds Ate My Baby! campaign back in high school. There was this one rule, which essentially said, "if there isn't a skill for it, you can't do it". You could view this as a simplifying feature for what is supposed to be a quick and light-hearted game. And you'd probably be right.

But there is another way this rule can be interpeted. Kobolds Ate My Baby! is very much a parody of standard D&D. When you look at it from that perspective, this explicitly-written rule is a satire of an unwritten rule in D&D: If the rules don't cover it, you can't do it.

Now you won't find this rule in the text of the SRD or any publication; that is, after all, what "unwritten" means. But one feature of the D&D system is that it attempts to be comprehensive. It attempts to have a rule for every situation. (And a prestige class for every archetype. That's why I wrote the alternate classes and the Class Design Rules: so you don't have to look through the hundreds of prestige classes out there to find the one that fits you.) We have rules for everything from lying your ass off to a guard, to shooting arrows at people during a hurricane, to fuckin' flipping burgers for a living. (Or the fantasy equivalent.) The rules dictate your character, your options, and the results of your choices much more strictly, than, say, White Wolf, where the system tells you only the general situation and leaves you to fill in the details. (Or BESM, where the rules are so broken nobody gives a sh!t about them.)

Of course, no rules system can be a completely comprehensive representation of a realistic world ("realistic" here meaning a world with people, and not like, say, a game of chess). But in many ways, D&D pretends to be comprehensive. And once people believe that it is comprehensive, the system no longer represents the world. It becomes the world.

And once the system becomes the world, the one who can master the system masters the world. And is a munchkin.

Okay, theory over. More rambling:

Now, I happen to like D&D. Okay, I despise standard D&D and for the past six months or so have been crudely ripping the innards out of it and transplanting my own blasphemous creations in their place. But, hey, it's what I grew up with. Plus it gives me something to do when I'm bored; if you haven't guessed by now, I like to analyze things.

Inevitably, this analysis ends up with me doing three kinds of things:
Bitch about balance. Trying to make it harder for munchkins to "master the system", as it were.
Introduce new material.
Make design rules. When done well, I consider this to be the pinnacle of my (mechanical) work. Design rules embody a large part of what I know about the system and they allow other people to easily introduce whatever they want to introduce and (ideally) keep it balanced. In a sense, they allow more freedom from the constraints and limitations of the standard rules.

nightinverse
2nd of March, 2006, 09:07
If the rules don't cover it, the GM takes control.

Daedalus
2nd of March, 2006, 09:35
Yeah, THC, I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. I've never much been a fan of the whole, "Yeah, what you've got planned is cool and all, but it won't maximize _____, and that's what you really want to do, maximize _____." business.

Exalted rewards doing cool things, World of Darkness rewards having a quick wit, Nobilis rewards thinking outside the box, Call of Cthulhu rewards doing smart things, and D20 Modern/Future rewards cohesion and efficiency.

D&D, meanwhile, rewards rules manipulation, something I, personally, am not in favor of.

Doomsmile
2nd of March, 2006, 10:13
D20 modern? Party cohesion? What?

Daedalus
2nd of March, 2006, 10:23
I said it rewards party cohesion, not that such automatically happens. :)

nightinverse
2nd of March, 2006, 11:17
D&D awards rules manipulation over other things only under a patently weak DM. The magic of any system is the GM/DM/Storyteller/Master is the only real rule outside of the initial setup.

Daedalus
2nd of March, 2006, 18:04
But that's just the thing; D&D is constructed around an idea that every game is the players vs. the DM, and as such, both sides are given a grand list of rules and told to follow them to the letter. Failure to do so from either side results in protests and/or the disbandment of the group. I'm not saying the DM has no real control; they rule everything that's not covered by the rules. The problem is, D&D has tried so very hard to make everything covered by the rules that there are very few things that fall under this purview.

nightinverse
3rd of March, 2006, 09:05
Well then, I'll just have to be authoritarian, as it's my favored system.